M-Check etc.

For discussions within the Cycle Training profession.
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RickH
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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby RickH » 3 Jan 2020, 4:26pm

pjclinch wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:If I had my way I would make sure every school leaver had Assembled a bike first and also mended Tyre flats And fit a chain in the field on their own.


You don't have any time for the idea that anything that can be perceived as a barrier to cycling is counter-productive, I take it?

OK, They weren't waiting to ride their bikes at the time but...

When I was in the early part of a college teaching course we had to come up with a short (around 15 minutes) activity to "teach" something to the rest of the class. I chose to do putting a patch on an inner tube as my activity. :D (And I'm still nowhere near using up the puncture kits I bought for the exercise, despite it being quite a few years ago!)

Marcus Aurelius
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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 3 Jan 2020, 4:50pm

Vorpal wrote:
Si wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:You only want to cover safety critical bits, and then only really in a ‘binary’ way (is whatever’s being checked actually functioning, or not) otherwise you’ll be there all day checking, and not riding


Not quite. If it's just you then fine, you can fix stuff as you ride. But if you've got a group of kids for a limited time period in which to teach them a lot of stuff, then you don't want to get them a distance from school only to find that a none safety critical thing has gone wrong on a bike, stopping them continuing with the session, meaning that you've got to take the whole group back to the school, quite possibly walking, to either dump the one kid or change bikes, then back out again to where ever you were doing the training. This is where what an instructor is doing the M-check/ABCDE for can differ to what a rider is doing it for.

We used to take with a phone number for a teacher or assistant who was available to come and collect students, if necessary. We leaarned to do that after a couple of misbehaving kids ruined two sessions in a row for all the rest of the students. After that experience, we just made the miscreants stand on a corner, near one of the instructors & wait for someone to come and collect them.

We did have some trouble with that approach once, when one of the students threatened to go home on his own. We had to stop the session, so that one instructor could supervise all of the other kids, while the other instructor (me) settled the young man and herded him back to the rest. I'm not sure the outcome would have been any different with the 'take them all back' approach. But at least we were able to continue after he agreed to wait until the assistant got there to take him back to school.

Never work with animals or children.

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pjclinch
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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby pjclinch » 5 Jan 2020, 5:15pm

RickH wrote:
pjclinch wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:If I had my way I would make sure every school leaver had Assembled a bike first and also mended Tyre flats And fit a chain in the field on their own.


You don't have any time for the idea that anything that can be perceived as a barrier to cycling is counter-productive, I take it?

OK, They weren't waiting to ride their bikes at the time but...

When I was in the early part of a college teaching course we had to come up with a short (around 15 minutes) activity to "teach" something to the rest of the class. I chose to do putting a patch on an inner tube as my activity. :D (And I'm still nowhere near using up the puncture kits I bought for the exercise, despite it being quite a few years ago!)


I don't want to suggest it's a bad idea to teach this sort of thing, particularly puncture repair, but if you make it a hard requirement of learning to ride that one must be able to build a bike then that will telegraph to some potential riders that cycling is hard and not for them.

I changed a tube and a tyre earlier today, more power to me, but if someone can't be bothered and would sooner have the local shop do whatever work needed done then that's an option, and suggesting you must be able to DIY downplays that option for not much reason.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

Marcus Aurelius
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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 5 Jan 2020, 5:50pm

pjclinch wrote:
RickH wrote:
pjclinch wrote:
You don't have any time for the idea that anything that can be perceived as a barrier to cycling is counter-productive, I take it?

OK, They weren't waiting to ride their bikes at the time but...

When I was in the early part of a college teaching course we had to come up with a short (around 15 minutes) activity to "teach" something to the rest of the class. I chose to do putting a patch on an inner tube as my activity. :D (And I'm still nowhere near using up the puncture kits I bought for the exercise, despite it being quite a few years ago!)


I don't want to suggest it's a bad idea to teach this sort of thing, particularly puncture repair, but if you make it a hard requirement of learning to ride that one must be able to build a bike then that will telegraph to some potential riders that cycling is hard and not for them.

I changed a tube and a tyre earlier today, more power to me, but if someone can't be bothered and would sooner have the local shop do whatever work needed done then that's an option, and suggesting you must be able to DIY downplays that option for not much reason.

Pete.


No one’s telling me to do nuffink, not even sort a puncture out. TRIGGERED TRIGGERED, HOW VERY DARE YOU TELL ME TO DO SUMFINK.

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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby Vorpal » 5 Jan 2020, 5:54pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
No one’s telling me to do nuffink, not even sort a puncture out. TRIGGERED TRIGGERED, HOW VERY DARE YOU TELL ME TO DO SUMFINK.

That seems a bit of over reaction. Would you mock a child that way? Or a visibly disabled cyclist?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

pedals2slowly
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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby pedals2slowly » 5 Jan 2020, 6:18pm

Are you guys National Standard Instructors or just trolls?

Bikeability requires us to teach basic safety checks and maintenance.

Marcus Aurelius
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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 5 Jan 2020, 7:10pm

Vorpal wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:
No one’s telling me to do nuffink, not even sort a puncture out. TRIGGERED TRIGGERED, HOW VERY DARE YOU TELL ME TO DO SUMFINK.

That seems a bit of over reaction. Would you mock a child that way? Or a visibly disabled cyclist?

I won’t work with animals, children, or prima donnas.

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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby Vorpal » 5 Jan 2020, 8:46pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:
No one’s telling me to do nuffink, not even sort a puncture out. TRIGGERED TRIGGERED, HOW VERY DARE YOU TELL ME TO DO SUMFINK.

That seems a bit of over reaction. Would you mock a child that way? Or a visibly disabled cyclist?

I won’t work with animals, children, or prima donnas.

No one has asked you to work with andimals, children, or prima donnas. But surely you see them occasionally?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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pjclinch
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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby pjclinch » 6 Jan 2020, 1:37pm

pedals2slowly wrote:Are you guys National Standard Instructors or just trolls?

Bikeability requires us to teach basic safety checks and maintenance.


I'm a National Standards instructor (Cycling Scotland Cycle Trainer).

The old National Standards that Bikeability (and Bikeability Scotland) were originally based on say the following about maintenance:

While we would not necessarily expect trainees, particularly children, to make repairs to their bike,we should expect that they are able to spot simple faults that need to be dealt with.


So checks, yes, but maintenance actually not. I'd say it's a great and very worthwhile extra for a Bike Club, but the point of Bikeability's core modules is control of a bike (Level 1) and interaction with other road users (levels 2 & 3).

The 2019 NS revision does have Element 1.2.2:Repair a puncture and Element 1.2.3: Conduct routine maintenance checks, but in the chart aligning Bikeability levels to NS Roles and Elements neither of those are aligned to Bikeability. Element 1.2.1: Check the cycle is ready for a journey is specifically aligned with Bikeability Level 1. Bikeability Plus isn't (yet) delivered in Scotland, but as I understand it the Fix module would work with the maintenance stuff.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

Vorpal
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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby Vorpal » 6 Jan 2020, 1:39pm

pedals2slowly wrote:Are you guys National Standard Instructors or just trolls?

Bikeability requires us to teach basic safety checks and maintenance.

I was an NSI. But others on this forum can use this board.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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gaz
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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby gaz » 6 Jan 2020, 7:35pm

Vorpal wrote:I was an NSI. But others on this forum can use this board.

This particular board is sub-headed "For discussions within the Cycle Training profession". Whilst anyone can post here there is an implication that not everybody should. That advice usually works and keeps the discussion on this board measured and respectful.

This particular thread was split out from another topic on a different board. At least some of the former participants have come here with it, perhaps unaware of the guidance.

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Si
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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby Si » 8 Jan 2020, 10:24am

Wrt teaching maintenance, that used to be part of Bikeability Plus....one of the extra add one a school could have. But wasn't part of the core nsi bikeability standard. No idea if it still is as I've not done Plus for ages. It was iirc a bit of an insurance grey area for the self employed

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Si
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Re: M-Check etc.

Postby Si » 8 Jan 2020, 10:28am

Wrt who this board is for....well every nsiq is well used to having every random Tom , dick and Harry walk up to them at the side of the road and tell them how to do their job, so why should the forum be differt? :lol: