The next Labour Leader

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pwa
Posts: 11178
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 14 Jan 2020, 8:06am

PH wrote:
pwa wrote: One traditional dilemma for Labour is whether to go for a leader who can win, or to settle for one who maintains the purity but frightens off the voters.

You asked me what was meant by traditional Labour values and I answered in good faith, but it seems you already had the dismissal ready, why not have just gone with that straight away and saved me the trouble?
If you want to win you are looking for Blair without the foreign adventures.

If you want a government that believes in the free market, but wants to spend more on social projects, you're a liberal. That's at their very core, that's what they are, that's what they do, why do you want to turn the Labour Party into the Liberals?
If you want to take command of the economy you will scare the voters, and lose. The only Labour leader to win since Wilson was Blair. Blair is as near to your values as you can get without scaring off the middle ground voters you need to win. Purity or pragmatism is the choice.

Yet poll after poll after poll shows that these policies are popular, would you like me to dig them out for you? Even the Yougov one taken days after the election, in the areas where Labour had just been hammered, showed majority support for the policies. The issue, leaving Brexit aside, is credibility and presentation, getting the message across when those controlling the media oppose it is a problem. Blair has said he was forced to court powerful press barons such as Rupert Murdoch, are you going to settle for that? There's a difference between being pragmatic and getting shafted.

The kind of leader and party you want is not the kind of Labour Party I used to vote for. You think it is, but it isn't. The Labour Party used to be hot on immigration control, fully behind NATO and suspicious about the EU. After Thatcher it accepted the plain fact that nationalised industries, which had been a great source of strife, were gone, and we had moved on to a non-nationalised economy. Nationalisation had failed. But we still have a need for a party that seeks fairer distribution of wealth, and that is where Labour comes in. If they can just focus on that.

During the election campaign Labour put forward attractive policies, but they put forward too many. It was farcical. It was as if we were being sold a fantasy world by people on drugs. And those of us who don't like being in the EU knew that the membership are strongly Remain and would manipulate things to steer us back that way. Two problems there.

You are probably right in that Labour are no longer relevant to me, but without broadening their attraction Labour are doomed to being in opposition for a very long time. It is a choice for the members, whether to make the party that best reflects their views or instead make a party that seeks out a middle ground that enough people will vote for. If you do the former, and I think you will, you will be helping Boris.

I'm not sure I care anymore. In my heart I have written Labour off.

Tangled Metal
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Jan 2020, 8:38am

Popular policy polling but biggest defeat since the 1930s. Who were they polling? Not a representative sample of the electorate it would seem. Unless I'm missing something.

PH
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby PH » 14 Jan 2020, 10:18am

Tangled Metal wrote:Popular policy polling but biggest defeat since the 1930s. Who were they polling? Not a representative sample of the electorate it would seem. Unless I'm missing something.

You're missing the reason people voted. The same polls show they didn't trust the Brexit policy, they didn't think the leadership capable of delivering the policies, they were suspicious of the antisemitism, they didn't trust the leadership on national security...
I was a huge defeat, there is a mountain to climb, chucking out popular policies isn't the way to do it.

PH
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby PH » 14 Jan 2020, 10:21am

pwa wrote:I'm not sure I care anymore. In my heart I have written Labour off.

That's a shame, it's always been a party that contained a broad range of opinion, I can't agree with you on many of the above points, but that's politics.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Jan 2020, 1:07pm

PH wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Popular policy polling but biggest defeat since the 1930s. Who were they polling? Not a representative sample of the electorate it would seem. Unless I'm missing something.

You're missing the reason people voted. The same polls show they didn't trust the Brexit policy, they didn't think the leadership capable of delivering the policies, they were suspicious of the antisemitism, they didn't trust the leadership on national security...
I was a huge defeat, there is a mountain to climb, chucking out popular policies isn't the way to do it.

So you're saying people liked some policies but overall the manifesto and party wasn't to voters liking. Perhaps overall there's more to like with Tory manifesto than labour one. Or are you saying voters didn't like the leadership of the labour party? Iirc the labour party faithful bent over backwards trying to spin against that pov.

It's the nature of elections that parties spin the policies they think will be popular but the electorate makes its own decision on what matters. It seems those popular policies weren't popular enough.

pete75
Posts: 12390
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pete75 » 14 Jan 2020, 1:23pm

pwa wrote:The kind of leader and party you want is not the kind of Labour Party I used to vote for. You think it is, but it isn't. The Labour Party used to be hot on immigration control, fully behind NATO and suspicious about the EU. After Thatcher it accepted the plain fact that nationalised industries, which had been a great source of strife, were gone, and we had moved on to a non-nationalised economy. Nationalisation had failed. But we still have a need for a party that seeks fairer distribution of wealth, and that is where Labour comes in. If they can just focus on that.

During the election campaign Labour put forward attractive policies, but they put forward too many. It was farcical. It was as if we were being sold a fantasy world by people on drugs. And those of us who don't like being in the EU knew that the membership are strongly Remain and would manipulate things to steer us back that way. Two problems there.

You are probably right in that Labour are no longer relevant to me, but without broadening their attraction Labour are doomed to being in opposition for a very long time. It is a choice for the members, whether to make the party that best reflects their views or instead make a party that seeks out a middle ground that enough people will vote for. If you do the former, and I think you will, you will be helping Boris.

I'm not sure I care anymore. In my heart I have written Labour off.

So you want a party that is anti immigrant, keen on defence with nationalist foreign policies yet socialist with the economy. What might be called national socialism. :lol:

pwa
Posts: 11178
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 14 Jan 2020, 1:29pm

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:The kind of leader and party you want is not the kind of Labour Party I used to vote for. You think it is, but it isn't. The Labour Party used to be hot on immigration control, fully behind NATO and suspicious about the EU. After Thatcher it accepted the plain fact that nationalised industries, which had been a great source of strife, were gone, and we had moved on to a non-nationalised economy. Nationalisation had failed. But we still have a need for a party that seeks fairer distribution of wealth, and that is where Labour comes in. If they can just focus on that.

During the election campaign Labour put forward attractive policies, but they put forward too many. It was farcical. It was as if we were being sold a fantasy world by people on drugs. And those of us who don't like being in the EU knew that the membership are strongly Remain and would manipulate things to steer us back that way. Two problems there.

You are probably right in that Labour are no longer relevant to me, but without broadening their attraction Labour are doomed to being in opposition for a very long time. It is a choice for the members, whether to make the party that best reflects their views or instead make a party that seeks out a middle ground that enough people will vote for. If you do the former, and I think you will, you will be helping Boris.

I'm not sure I care anymore. In my heart I have written Labour off.

So you want a party that is anti immigrant, keen on defence with nationalist foreign policies yet socialist with the economy. What might be called national socialism. :lol:

"Hot on immigration control" is not the same as "anti immigrant". But then you know that. Keen on defence does not mean keen on offence. But you knew that as well. And these are things we used to get from Labour. When they still lived on this planet.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6300
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Jan 2020, 1:32pm

Was that in the Foot era?

pwa
Posts: 11178
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 14 Jan 2020, 1:34pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Was that in the Foot era?

No, it was before and after, but certainly not during. :lol:

pete75
Posts: 12390
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pete75 » 14 Jan 2020, 3:03pm

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:The kind of leader and party you want is not the kind of Labour Party I used to vote for. You think it is, but it isn't. The Labour Party used to be hot on immigration control, fully behind NATO and suspicious about the EU. After Thatcher it accepted the plain fact that nationalised industries, which had been a great source of strife, were gone, and we had moved on to a non-nationalised economy. Nationalisation had failed. But we still have a need for a party that seeks fairer distribution of wealth, and that is where Labour comes in. If they can just focus on that.

During the election campaign Labour put forward attractive policies, but they put forward too many. It was farcical. It was as if we were being sold a fantasy world by people on drugs. And those of us who don't like being in the EU knew that the membership are strongly Remain and would manipulate things to steer us back that way. Two problems there.

You are probably right in that Labour are no longer relevant to me, but without broadening their attraction Labour are doomed to being in opposition for a very long time. It is a choice for the members, whether to make the party that best reflects their views or instead make a party that seeks out a middle ground that enough people will vote for. If you do the former, and I think you will, you will be helping Boris.

I'm not sure I care anymore. In my heart I have written Labour off.

So you want a party that is anti immigrant, keen on defence with nationalist foreign policies yet socialist with the economy. What might be called national socialism. :lol:

"Hot on immigration control" is not the same as "anti immigrant". But then you know that. Keen on defence does not mean keen on offence. But you knew that as well. And these are things we used to get from Labour. When they still lived on this planet.
.
Keep thinking like that if it salves your conscience. Hot on controlling immigration is anti immigrant and high defence spending is militaristic.

pwa
Posts: 11178
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 14 Jan 2020, 3:09pm

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:So you want a party that is anti immigrant, keen on defence with nationalist foreign policies yet socialist with the economy. What might be called national socialism. :lol:

"Hot on immigration control" is not the same as "anti immigrant". But then you know that. Keen on defence does not mean keen on offence. But you knew that as well. And these are things we used to get from Labour. When they still lived on this planet.
.
Keep thinking like that if it salves your conscience.

Keep thinking the way you do and keep Boris safe for a decade. That is a flippant remark but I think it is true. Labour need to reach out to people who don't buy into their full-on message. If they keep singing the same tunes they will get the same result, and this could be just the start of their wilderness years. You and I may never see another non-Tory government.

PH
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby PH » 14 Jan 2020, 9:16pm

Tangled Metal wrote:So you're saying people liked some policies but overall the manifesto and party wasn't to voters liking.

I'm reporting what the polls say, please don't shoot the messenger :?
When people say that voters won't ever vote for those policies, it seems reasonable to ask what evidence there is for that and if pointing at the disastrous election results is all they offer I say it's not as simple as that. You may be of the opinion that the polls are wrong, there's plenty of examples where they have been, but they have been consistently showing the support for some of these policies for longer than Corbyn's been leader, so it's going to take some persuasion for me to change my opinion that they are representative.
Last edited by PH on 14 Jan 2020, 9:19pm, edited 1 time in total.

PH
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Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby PH » 14 Jan 2020, 9:19pm

pwa wrote:If they keep singing the same tunes they will get the same result,

IMO No 1 on the agenda ought to be getting the party singing the same tune as each other, and at the risk of being repetitive they should choose the tune before appointing the conductor.

pete75
Posts: 12390
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pete75 » 14 Jan 2020, 9:37pm

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:"Hot on immigration control" is not the same as "anti immigrant". But then you know that. Keen on defence does not mean keen on offence. But you knew that as well. And these are things we used to get from Labour. When they still lived on this planet.
.
Keep thinking like that if it salves your conscience.

Keep thinking the way you do and keep Boris safe for a decade. That is a flippant remark but I think it is true. Labour need to reach out to people who don't buy into their full-on message. If they keep singing the same tunes they will get the same result, and this could be just the start of their wilderness years. You and I may never see another non-Tory government.


I don't think Labour will ever go after or want to go after the right wing on immigration, right wing on defence, left wing on economic policy type of person.
There are parties that cater for that sort of view but they're hardly mainstream - well not yet at least.

pwa
Posts: 11178
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 14 Jan 2020, 10:19pm

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:.
Keep thinking like that if it salves your conscience.

Keep thinking the way you do and keep Boris safe for a decade. That is a flippant remark but I think it is true. Labour need to reach out to people who don't buy into their full-on message. If they keep singing the same tunes they will get the same result, and this could be just the start of their wilderness years. You and I may never see another non-Tory government.


I don't think Labour will ever go after or want to go after the right wing on immigration, right wing on defence, left wing on economic policy type of person.
There are parties that cater for that sort of view but they're hardly mainstream - well not yet at least.

Labour was reasonably robust of immigration (not right wing) in the past, and did enthuse about NATO, while advocating social justice. It can do all those things without being right wing. If folk like you keep telling people they need to vote for a right wing party to get border controls, eventually they may believe you and do just that. Perhaps that is what has happened.