The next Labour Leader

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
pwa
Posts: 11647
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 14 Jan 2020, 10:21pm

PH wrote:
pwa wrote:If they keep singing the same tunes they will get the same result,

IMO No 1 on the agenda ought to be getting the party singing the same tune as each other, and at the risk of being repetitive they should choose the tune before appointing the conductor.

I think the process is to choose the conductor on the basis of the tune they want to play. On the basis of what I am observing now.

pete75
Posts: 12814
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pete75 » 14 Jan 2020, 11:54pm

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:Keep thinking the way you do and keep Boris safe for a decade. That is a flippant remark but I think it is true. Labour need to reach out to people who don't buy into their full-on message. If they keep singing the same tunes they will get the same result, and this could be just the start of their wilderness years. You and I may never see another non-Tory government.


I don't think Labour will ever go after or want to go after the right wing on immigration, right wing on defence, left wing on economic policy type of person.
There are parties that cater for that sort of view but they're hardly mainstream - well not yet at least.

Labour was reasonably robust of immigration (not right wing) in the past, and did enthuse about NATO, while advocating social justice. It can do all those things without being right wing. If folk like you keep telling people they need to vote for a right wing party to get border controls, eventually they may believe you and do just that. Perhaps that is what has happened.


We have border controls already and have never not had them.

Believe me I know people who dislike immigration and they're supporting right wing parties anyway. It's the Tories who've moved to the right to attract such people. Even Tony Blair, who followed some neo liberal economic policies, would never have moved the party far enough right to attract such people.
In the unlikely event the Labour party did adopt the sort of policies that would gain your vote it would lose my vote and doubtless that of many other former supporters.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6458
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby Tangled Metal » 15 Jan 2020, 12:14am

Aren't you one of those who assert that Tony Blair's labour party was tory lite? Wouldn't vote for them?

pwa
Posts: 11647
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 15 Jan 2020, 6:23am

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
I don't think Labour will ever go after or want to go after the right wing on immigration, right wing on defence, left wing on economic policy type of person.
There are parties that cater for that sort of view but they're hardly mainstream - well not yet at least.

Labour was reasonably robust of immigration (not right wing) in the past, and did enthuse about NATO, while advocating social justice. It can do all those things without being right wing. If folk like you keep telling people they need to vote for a right wing party to get border controls, eventually they may believe you and do just that. Perhaps that is what has happened.


We have border controls already and have never not had them.

Believe me I know people who dislike immigration and they're supporting right wing parties anyway. It's the Tories who've moved to the right to attract such people. Even Tony Blair, who followed some neo liberal economic policies, would never have moved the party far enough right to attract such people.
In the unlikely event the Labour party did adopt the sort of policies that would gain your vote it would lose my vote and doubtless that of many other former supporters.

Ending automatic Free Movement of labour and putting a brake on the arrival of low skilled migrants so that immigration is in a better balance with emigration? That would be a compromise too far for you? You do what the Labour Party has tended to do in recent years. You call any concern over migration racist and bigoted, even if it clearly isn't, and the effect is to drive people away. Your "broad church" party has become a narrow sect that tolerates no suggestion that immigration is out of balance with emigration. Call it racism and shut them up. That is the reaction. And you wonder why Labour are going down the pan.

pete75
Posts: 12814
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pete75 » 15 Jan 2020, 10:11am

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:Labour was reasonably robust of immigration (not right wing) in the past, and did enthuse about NATO, while advocating social justice. It can do all those things without being right wing. If folk like you keep telling people they need to vote for a right wing party to get border controls, eventually they may believe you and do just that. Perhaps that is what has happened.


We have border controls already and have never not had them.

Believe me I know people who dislike immigration and they're supporting right wing parties anyway. It's the Tories who've moved to the right to attract such people. Even Tony Blair, who followed some neo liberal economic policies, would never have moved the party far enough right to attract such people.
In the unlikely event the Labour party did adopt the sort of policies that would gain your vote it would lose my vote and doubtless that of many other former supporters.

Ending automatic Free Movement of labour and putting a brake on the arrival of low skilled migrants so that immigration is in a better balance with emigration? That would be a compromise too far for you? You do what the Labour Party has tended to do in recent years. You call any concern over migration racist and bigoted, even if it clearly isn't, and the effect is to drive people away. Your "broad church" party has become a narrow sect that tolerates no suggestion that immigration is out of balance with emigration. Call it racism and shut them up. That is the reaction. And you wonder why Labour are going down the pan.


You're the one who has mentioned racism not me.

As I've mentioned before I live in a part of the country with many migrants from Eastern Europe. They didn't come here on the off chance or to sit on the dole but because jobs were available. In other words they were needed. What's wrong with that?

pwa
Posts: 11647
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 15 Jan 2020, 3:36pm

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
We have border controls already and have never not had them.

Believe me I know people who dislike immigration and they're supporting right wing parties anyway. It's the Tories who've moved to the right to attract such people. Even Tony Blair, who followed some neo liberal economic policies, would never have moved the party far enough right to attract such people.
In the unlikely event the Labour party did adopt the sort of policies that would gain your vote it would lose my vote and doubtless that of many other former supporters.

Ending automatic Free Movement of labour and putting a brake on the arrival of low skilled migrants so that immigration is in a better balance with emigration? That would be a compromise too far for you? You do what the Labour Party has tended to do in recent years. You call any concern over migration racist and bigoted, even if it clearly isn't, and the effect is to drive people away. Your "broad church" party has become a narrow sect that tolerates no suggestion that immigration is out of balance with emigration. Call it racism and shut them up. That is the reaction. And you wonder why Labour are going down the pan.


You're the one who has mentioned racism not me.

As I've mentioned before I live in a part of the country with many migrants from Eastern Europe. They didn't come here on the off chance or to sit on the dole but because jobs were available. In other words they were needed. What's wrong with that?

I think disingenuous might be the word I'm looking for. You suggested that the kind of socialism that I want is "national socialism", which you know as well as I do is Nazism, then I respond as if you equate my views with racism. And you can't see why?

I don't portray migrants as lazy dole scroungers, and as for the rest of it we did it all to death a couple of years ago.

pete75
Posts: 12814
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pete75 » 15 Jan 2020, 3:51pm

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:Ending automatic Free Movement of labour and putting a brake on the arrival of low skilled migrants so that immigration is in a better balance with emigration? That would be a compromise too far for you? You do what the Labour Party has tended to do in recent years. You call any concern over migration racist and bigoted, even if it clearly isn't, and the effect is to drive people away. Your "broad church" party has become a narrow sect that tolerates no suggestion that immigration is out of balance with emigration. Call it racism and shut them up. That is the reaction. And you wonder why Labour are going down the pan.


You're the one who has mentioned racism not me.

As I've mentioned before I live in a part of the country with many migrants from Eastern Europe. They didn't come here on the off chance or to sit on the dole but because jobs were available. In other words they were needed. What's wrong with that?

I think disingenuous might be the word I'm looking for. You suggested that the kind of socialism that I want is "national socialism", which you know as well as I do is Nazism, then I respond as if you equate my views with racism. And you can't see why?

I don't portray migrants as lazy dole scroungers, and as for the rest of it we did it all to death a couple of years ago.


Who said you do? You seem to be against free movement of people what I'm saying is the people who came here under free movement were needed.

I've never mentioned racism. That's your conclusion and your words. I've no idea if you're a racist or not. You seem keen to adopt that sort of rightist "victimhood" whereby anyone who criticizes their view on immigration is implicitly accusing them of racism.

What I would say is that your right wing views on stuff like immigration, the armed forces, desire to break ties with our near neighbours etc and left wing ones on things like income inequality fit well with the views of many right wing populist parties.

pwa
Posts: 11647
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 15 Jan 2020, 4:01pm

pete75 wrote:
What I would say is that your right wing views on stuff like immigration, the armed forces, desire to break ties with our near neighbours etc and left wing ones on things like income inequality fit well with the views of many right wing populist parties.

Whereas my belief in the equality of all UK citizens, whatever their race, creed or ethnicity may not. I don't think wanting more controlled immigration is right wing if it is applied equally to applicants, without regard to skin colour, religion or stuff like that. With regard to the armed forces I just want a PM who, like Labour PMs of the past, is committed to working within NATO for the foreseeable future. These used to be mainstream Labour views, but not anymore.

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 2767
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby roubaixtuesday » 15 Jan 2020, 4:41pm

pwa wrote:With regard to the armed forces I just want a PM who, like Labour PMs of the past, is committed to working within NATO for the foreseeable future. These used to be mainstream Labour views, but not anymore.


I don't think this is true at all.

There's a Labour leadership contest at the moment and AFAIK none of the candidates favour leaving NATO.

pwa
Posts: 11647
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 15 Jan 2020, 4:47pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
pwa wrote:With regard to the armed forces I just want a PM who, like Labour PMs of the past, is committed to working within NATO for the foreseeable future. These used to be mainstream Labour views, but not anymore.


I don't think this is true at all.

There's a Labour leadership contest at the moment and AFAIK none of the candidates favour leaving NATO.

Corbyn was luke warm on NATO. I'm not up to speed on the "contenders" so I'll take your word on that.

pete75
Posts: 12814
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pete75 » 15 Jan 2020, 5:15pm

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
What I would say is that your right wing views on stuff like immigration, the armed forces, desire to break ties with our near neighbours etc and left wing ones on things like income inequality fit well with the views of many right wing populist parties.

Whereas my belief in the equality of all UK citizens, whatever their race, creed or ethnicity may not. I don't think wanting more controlled immigration is right wing if it is applied equally to applicants, without regard to skin colour, religion or stuff like that. With regard to the armed forces I just want a PM who, like Labour PMs of the past, is committed to working within NATO for the foreseeable future. These used to be mainstream Labour views, but not anymore.


There may be little point in that when the president of the USA appears to have little commitment to NATO. If Trump wins a second term it's likely the USA will be gone from the organisation. What then - our former friends and allies in Europe would doubtless form their own alliance and where would that leave Britain?

Should the same border controls should apply to all regardless of where they're from? So what should happen - a relaxation of existing controls or applying them to everyone. For example for an Indian to get a Visa to visit the UK they need to show a return ticket and a covering letter giving details of their itinerary during the trip and who will be paying. These documents are described as helpful in securing a visa - a bank statement showing a healthy account balance and proof of earnings such as an income tax return showing proof of income. Do you think this should apply to visitors from France or Germany as well or abolished for Indians?

pwa
Posts: 11647
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 15 Jan 2020, 6:33pm

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
What I would say is that your right wing views on stuff like immigration, the armed forces, desire to break ties with our near neighbours etc and left wing ones on things like income inequality fit well with the views of many right wing populist parties.

Whereas my belief in the equality of all UK citizens, whatever their race, creed or ethnicity may not. I don't think wanting more controlled immigration is right wing if it is applied equally to applicants, without regard to skin colour, religion or stuff like that. With regard to the armed forces I just want a PM who, like Labour PMs of the past, is committed to working within NATO for the foreseeable future. These used to be mainstream Labour views, but not anymore.


There may be little point in that when the president of the USA appears to have little commitment to NATO. If Trump wins a second term it's likely the USA will be gone from the organisation. What then - our former friends and allies in Europe would doubtless form their own alliance and where would that leave Britain?

Should the same border controls should apply to all regardless of where they're from? So what should happen - a relaxation of existing controls or applying them to everyone. For example for an Indian to get a Visa to visit the UK they need to show a return ticket and a covering letter giving details of their itinerary during the trip and who will be paying. These documents are described as helpful in securing a visa - a bank statement showing a healthy account balance and proof of earnings such as an income tax return showing proof of income. Do you think this should apply to visitors from France or Germany as well or abolished for Indians?

Trump is a problem.

The question about entry documents is interesting. I don't feel at all comfortable with the idea of humiliating decent people from India (or wherever) by requiring them to have extra assurances that they won't stay. If you find that a bit iffy, so do I. But I imagine (rather than know) that visitors from nations with a low average income are more likely to overstay. Do you have a view on that?

pete75
Posts: 12814
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pete75 » 15 Jan 2020, 6:47pm

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:Whereas my belief in the equality of all UK citizens, whatever their race, creed or ethnicity may not. I don't think wanting more controlled immigration is right wing if it is applied equally to applicants, without regard to skin colour, religion or stuff like that. With regard to the armed forces I just want a PM who, like Labour PMs of the past, is committed to working within NATO for the foreseeable future. These used to be mainstream Labour views, but not anymore.


There may be little point in that when the president of the USA appears to have little commitment to NATO. If Trump wins a second term it's likely the USA will be gone from the organisation. What then - our former friends and allies in Europe would doubtless form their own alliance and where would that leave Britain?

Should the same border controls should apply to all regardless of where they're from? So what should happen - a relaxation of existing controls or applying them to everyone. For example for an Indian to get a Visa to visit the UK they need to show a return ticket and a covering letter giving details of their itinerary during the trip and who will be paying. These documents are described as helpful in securing a visa - a bank statement showing a healthy account balance and proof of earnings such as an income tax return showing proof of income. Do you think this should apply to visitors from France or Germany as well or abolished for Indians?

Trump is a problem.

The question about entry documents is interesting. I don't feel at all comfortable with the idea of humiliating decent people from India (or wherever) by requiring them to have extra assurances that they won't stay. If you find that a bit iffy, so do I. But I imagine (rather than know) that visitors from nations with a low average income are more likely to overstay. Do you have a view on that?


My point is if we are to treat all from overseas in the same way after Brexit then either the Indian Visa regs will have to apply to people from France or be dropped altogether. If we were to have a non discriminatory policy then entry requirements for nationals of all countries would have to be similar.


Trump is a problem??? I thought Brexiters were relying on him to do a quick and favourable trade deal with the UK.

pwa
Posts: 11647
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pwa » 15 Jan 2020, 6:59pm

pete75 wrote:
My point is if we are to treat all from overseas in the same way after Brexit then either the Indian Visa regs will have to apply to people from France or be dropped altogether. If we were to have a non discriminatory policy then entry requirements for nationals of all countries would have to be similar.


Trump is a problem??? I thought Brexiters were relying on him to do a quick and favourable trade deal with the UK.


We already discriminate between nationals from different countries. How we do that in the future is up for debate. What we can agree on is that race, religion and ethnicity should have nothing to do with it. Perhaps the relative wealth of nations is what it boils down to. If you come from a wealthy country you are less likely to overstay. Is it your belief that entry requirements should be uniform for nationals of all countries outside the EU?

Of course Trump is a problem and I hope to God that he doesn't get re-elected, but I'm not confident.

pete75
Posts: 12814
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: The next Labour Leader

Postby pete75 » 15 Jan 2020, 7:39pm

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
My point is if we are to treat all from overseas in the same way after Brexit then either the Indian Visa regs will have to apply to people from France or be dropped altogether. If we were to have a non discriminatory policy then entry requirements for nationals of all countries would have to be similar.


Trump is a problem??? I thought Brexiters were relying on him to do a quick and favourable trade deal with the UK.


We already discriminate between nationals from different countries. How we do that in the future is up for debate. What we can agree on is that race, religion and ethnicity should have nothing to do with it. Perhaps the relative wealth of nations is what it boils down to. If you come from a wealthy country you are less likely to overstay. Is it your belief that entry requirements should be uniform for nationals of all countries outside the EU?

Of course Trump is a problem and I hope to God that he doesn't get re-elected, but I'm not confident.


If there is to be a non discriminatory entry policy then it has to be the same for all. Once Britain has left the EU people from it will have no special status will they?
I don't know if differences are entirely due to wealth , for example Qatari citizens require a Visa to enter the UK.