Diplomatic Immunity?

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Vorpal
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby Vorpal » 24 Jan 2020, 8:44pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Vorpal wrote:The bases put signs up, but it's a regular occurrence that folks drive on the wrong side coming off base. I saw it more than once in Suffolk, even though I was a fairly regular, but not frequent cyclist in the area around the American bases there. People I knew who lived in a nearby village said it locals learned to watch out for it.


Plainly more than a sign is needed then.

What is the drill when confronted by an oncoming large car? Stop? Move to the right? On a bike I guess you can generally jump for the hedge.

On both occasions that I saw it, it did not directly affect me. Once, there weren't many folks around, and the driver realised their error fairly quickly. The second time, there were other vehicles around, and a crash was narrowly avoided. I think the driver(s) on the correct side went towards the kerb and the driver on the wrong side swerved the correct way at the last moment.
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bigjim
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby bigjim » 25 Jan 2020, 5:28pm

I thought this woman did not have diplomatic immunity?
Dunn's parents were advised by two leading specialist lawyers on diplomatic immunity, Mark Stephens and Geoffrey Robertson. They advised that Anne Sacoolas was not entitled to diplomatic immunity as her husband was not listed as a diplomat.


The move to charge Mrs Sacoolas comes after a file was handed to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) on 1 November. The CPS said immunity did not apply to dependants of consular officials outside of London.
Nothing left to prove.

Carlton green
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby Carlton green » 25 Jan 2020, 5:44pm

I would have thought that the U.K. Government either does or could find out where this women is living and then send a Diplomat to see her ever few days to remind her of her obligation to return to the U.K. for her trial. At the same time we as a country should tell the Americans that ‘diplomatic’ spouses and the spouses of service personnel need to be approved in future and that many spouses at that base now need to either return to the USA or not leave it except when when under the care of a designated and on duty ‘service man/woman’.

The Americans and UK are long term allies but we don’t abuse each other, in this instance a misuse of diplomatic immunity has taken place and that is simply not the way that friends behave towards each other. Of course the culprit could also be tried in her absence and then spend her (likely) conviction in an American Prison - or failing that ours when she eventually steps outside of the USA. I’d also like to see a Police presence outside of the base with every USA car stopped, the driver reminded of the need to obey our laws and also reminded that one of their number is guilty of evading justice. Bill boards with a similar message wouldn’t be inappropriate too, just with a general message reminding people of road safety and asking for the return of the person for trial who has inappropriately fled justice.

Yes, a tempered response is needed - perhaps more tempered than mine - and anyone can make a fatal error but evading justice (in a fair court) is simply not acceptable in a civilised society.

mercalia
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby mercalia » 25 Jan 2020, 6:19pm

Carlton green wrote:I would have thought that the U.K. Government either does or could find out where this women is living and then send a Diplomat to see her ever few days to remind her of her obligation to return to the U.K. for her trial. At the same time we as a country should tell the Americans that ‘diplomatic’ spouses and the spouses of service personnel need to be approved in future and that many spouses at that base now need to either return to the USA or not leave it except when when under the care of a designated and on duty ‘service man/woman’.

The Americans and UK are long term allies but we don’t abuse each other, in this instance a misuse of diplomatic immunity has taken place and that is simply not the way that friends behave towards each other. Of course the culprit could also be tried in her absence and then spend her (likely) conviction in an American Prison - or failing that ours when she eventually steps outside of the USA. I’d also like to see a Police presence outside of the base with every USA car stopped, the driver reminded of the need to obey our laws and also reminded that one of their number is guilty of evading justice. Bill boards with a similar message wouldn’t be inappropriate too, just with a general message reminding people of road safety and asking for the return of the person for trial who has inappropriately fled justice.

Yes, a tempered response is needed - perhaps more tempered than mine - and anyone can make a fatal error but evading justice (in a fair court) is simply not acceptable in a civilised society.


Close the American bases down. We dont need them anymore. They are there just to protect American Interests - viz fight a war on any ones soil but their own?

Following your lead, prosecute her in an American court?

I am very surprised the whole extradition matter didnt go before the US courts, rather their secretary of state stepped in and circumvented it. Political Interferance if ever there was ? But then what do you expect from a Trump administration. God Help Boris and Brexit

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby Mike Sales » 25 Jan 2020, 6:36pm

mercalia wrote:Close the American bases down. We dont need them anymore. They are there just to protect American Interests - viz fight a war on any ones soil but their own?



In 1984 Orwell calls Britain "Airstrip 1".

Carlton green
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby Carlton green » 25 Jan 2020, 8:23pm

mercalia wrote:
Carlton green wrote:I would have thought that the U.K. Government either does or could find out where this women is living and then send a Diplomat to see her ever few days to remind her of her obligation to return to the U.K. for her trial. At the same time we as a country should tell the Americans that ‘diplomatic’ spouses and the spouses of service personnel need to be approved in future and that many spouses at that base now need to either return to the USA or not leave it except when when under the care of a designated and on duty ‘service man/woman’.

The Americans and UK are long term allies but we don’t abuse each other, in this instance a misuse of diplomatic immunity has taken place and that is simply not the way that friends behave towards each other. Of course the culprit could also be tried in her absence and then spend her (likely) conviction in an American Prison - or failing that ours when she eventually steps outside of the USA. I’d also like to see a Police presence outside of the base with every USA car stopped, the driver reminded of the need to obey our laws and also reminded that one of their number is guilty of evading justice. Bill boards with a similar message wouldn’t be inappropriate too, just with a general message reminding people of road safety and asking for the return of the person for trial who has inappropriately fled justice.

Yes, a tempered response is needed - perhaps more tempered than mine - and anyone can make a fatal error but evading justice (in a fair court) is simply not acceptable in a civilised society.


Close the American bases down. We dont need them anymore. They are there just to protect American Interests - viz fight a war on any ones soil but their own?

Following your lead, prosecute her in an American court?

I am very surprised the whole extradition matter didnt go before the US courts, rather their secretary of state stepped in and circumvented it. Political Interferance if ever there was ? But then what do you expect from a Trump administration. God Help Boris and Brexit


Closing the bases down wouldn’t be my preferred way forward, the Americans are our Allies within NATO and I’ve no aspiration to leave that organisation any time soon if ever.

Prosecution in an American courts for crimes committed here is impossible, but prosecution (here) in her absence is possible (I believe) in the U.K. courts.

For some reason it has become a political issue and all sides need to step away from that position. The bottom line is that someone has fled back to the USA to avoid justice in this country, I think that those involved in aiding the flight home have likely committed some crime too and we should be asking questions with a view to pressing any possible charges.

I do believe that the American Ambassador here in the U.K. should be being put under regular and visible pressure on this issue. Let the diplomatic channels work ... and our Diplomats in the USA need to be making a lot of this woman being a criminal who should be returned to the U.K. . By all possible means our Diplomats also need to apply social pressure and (within the law) her life should be made progressively more difficult until she returns here to face justice. The Americans need to understand that we really are ‘pissed’ about this.

mercalia
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby mercalia » 25 Jan 2020, 8:50pm

Carlton green wrote:
mercalia wrote:
Carlton green wrote:I would have thought that the U.K. Government either does or could find out where this women is living and then send a Diplomat to see her ever few days to remind her of her obligation to return to the U.K. for her trial. At the same time we as a country should tell the Americans that ‘diplomatic’ spouses and the spouses of service personnel need to be approved in future and that many spouses at that base now need to either return to the USA or not leave it except when when under the care of a designated and on duty ‘service man/woman’.

The Americans and UK are long term allies but we don’t abuse each other, in this instance a misuse of diplomatic immunity has taken place and that is simply not the way that friends behave towards each other. Of course the culprit could also be tried in her absence and then spend her (likely) conviction in an American Prison - or failing that ours when she eventually steps outside of the USA. I’d also like to see a Police presence outside of the base with every USA car stopped, the driver reminded of the need to obey our laws and also reminded that one of their number is guilty of evading justice. Bill boards with a similar message wouldn’t be inappropriate too, just with a general message reminding people of road safety and asking for the return of the person for trial who has inappropriately fled justice.

Yes, a tempered response is needed - perhaps more tempered than mine - and anyone can make a fatal error but evading justice (in a fair court) is simply not acceptable in a civilised society.


Close the American bases down. We dont need them anymore. They are there just to protect American Interests - viz fight a war on any ones soil but their own?

Following your lead, prosecute her in an American court?

I am very surprised the whole extradition matter didnt go before the US courts, rather their secretary of state stepped in and circumvented it. Political Interferance if ever there was ? But then what do you expect from a Trump administration. God Help Boris and Brexit


Closing the bases down wouldn’t be my preferred way forward, the Americans are our Allies within NATO and I’ve no aspiration to leave that organisation any time soon if ever.

Prosecution in an American courts for crimes committed here is impossible, but prosecution (here) in her absence is possible (I believe) in the U.K. courts.

For some reason it has become a political issue and all sides need to step away from that position. The bottom line is that someone has fled back to the USA to avoid justice in this country, I think that those involved in aiding the flight home have likely committed some crime too and we should be asking questions with a view to pressing any possible charges.

I do believe that the American Ambassador here in the U.K. should be being put under regular and visible pressure on this issue. Let the diplomatic channels work ... and our Diplomats in the USA need to be making a lot of this woman being a criminal who should be returned to the U.K. . By all possible means our Diplomats also need to apply social pressure and (within the law) her life should be made progressively more difficult until she returns here to face justice. The Americans need to understand that we really are ‘pissed’ about this.



well on that basis the US Secretary of State is complicit in subverting the course of justice in this country and so should be indicted and an extradition sought for him too....... that will micturate off the yanks ( I used another word but the censor jumped in) , never used that word before :lol: :lol: dont even know what it means :lol: I want to micturate, where is the loo please?

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby Tangled Metal » 26 Jan 2020, 12:15am

Mike Sales wrote:
Vorpal wrote:The bases put signs up, but it's a regular occurrence that folks drive on the wrong side coming off base. I saw it more than once in Suffolk, even though I was a fairly regular, but not frequent cyclist in the area around the American bases there. People I knew who lived in a nearby village said it locals learned to watch out for it.


Plainly more than a sign is needed then.

What is the drill when confronted by an oncoming large car? Stop? Move to the right? On a bike I guess you can generally jump for the hedge.

In America it might be take out your legal, concealed carry and shoot the tires out on one side so it serves to the correct side of the road. Surely that would be the Texan way.

Can't we station police with stinger strips outside the bases for a few hours a day to use if there's a transgression in our laws? Perhaps not even that often just enough to cost a few septics the price of a set of expensive suv tyres. Inconvenience caused might wake the buggers up!

merseymouth
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby merseymouth » 26 Jan 2020, 8:29am

Hi all, Good thing they drive on the same side of the road in both Russia & the U.S.ofA?
That if some non-thinking Yank rolled out of the Legation and took out one of Putin's co-citizens that would certainly create a top grade "Diplomatic Incident"!
But of course that offender would have sod all chance of sneaking out of the country to save their scalp.
There are countries where rule of the road is at best vague, at worst Survival of the Fittest, India springs to mind, so if I had to undertake Diplomatic Duties I would insist on being carried in the middle of a full blown armoured convoy, wearing of course a reinforced Mr Bibendum suit! :lol: :lol: :lol:
But on a serious note I must say that the whole question of "Diplomatic Status & Immunity" must be urgently reviewed, too many, too loose.
I bet Trump's "Hair Stylist" even has such protection? IGICB MM

Mike Sales
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby Mike Sales » 27 Jan 2020, 11:12pm

Perhaps we could do a swap. Sacoolas for Randy Andy.

pete75
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby pete75 » 29 Jan 2020, 11:16am

Psamathe wrote:But I also wonder if even those diplomats (excl. entourage) should abide at least by the laws of their own country e.g. hit somebody with a car and run away would be illegal in the US as well as the UK so "diplomatic immunity" should not be a license to behave outside any laws.

Ian

Under US law she was doing nothing wrong. The motorcyclist was.

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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby mattheus » 29 Jan 2020, 11:23am

pete75 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:But I also wonder if even those diplomats (excl. entourage) should abide at least by the laws of their own country e.g. hit somebody with a car and run away would be illegal in the US as well as the UK so "diplomatic immunity" should not be a license to behave outside any laws.

Ian

Under US law she was doing nothing wrong. The motorcyclist was.


I'm not sure that's a very helpful comment. On many levels.

mercalia
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby mercalia » 29 Jan 2020, 11:23am

So Mike Pompeo ( Yank Secretary of State) , the guy who conspired with Anne Sacoolas to pervert the course of justice, is paying a visit to the UK. Maybe a chance to arrest him while he is here and deport him as an undesirable?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51290646

mattheus
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby mattheus » 29 Jan 2020, 11:25am

Mike Sales wrote:Perhaps we could do a swap. Sacoolas for Randy Andy.

win-win, I like it.

mercalia
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Re: Diplomatic Immunity?

Postby mercalia » 29 Jan 2020, 11:26am

mattheus wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:But I also wonder if even those diplomats (excl. entourage) should abide at least by the laws of their own country e.g. hit somebody with a car and run away would be illegal in the US as well as the UK so "diplomatic immunity" should not be a license to behave outside any laws.

Ian

Under US law she was doing nothing wrong. The motorcyclist was.


I'm not sure that's a very helpful comment. On many levels.


was just sarcasm? And justified as the Yanks have abused the status of diplomatic immunity - They have a twisted sense of fairness and thats how they would interpret the idea