Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

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The utility cyclist
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Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby The utility cyclist » 21 Jan 2020, 12:04am

further to the 1st reading in October last year, it's now come up with electric assist HoL https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/202 ... es(Cycling)Bill(HL)
the original https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/201 ... es(Cycling)Bill(HL)

Despite the harm done by pedestrians to people on bikes and indeed to other pedestrians, there's as yet no proposal for Dangerous, Inconsiderate and careless Pedestrianist laws ...

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby PH » 21 Jan 2020, 1:22am

It isn't further to it's first reading, this is a new Bill, this was it's first reading. It may look the same and say the same, but the previous one died with the parliament. Yes we need to watch out for it, but the chances of a private members Bill from the Lords getting into legislation isn't high.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby Oldjohnw » 2 Feb 2020, 1:42pm

Pedestrians ‘will face danger if e‑scooters get road approval’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... _clipboard
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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby fastpedaller » 2 Feb 2020, 3:10pm

Oldjohnw wrote:Pedestrians ‘will face danger if e‑scooters get road approval’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... _clipboard


I should think e-scooter riders will face danger if they're mixing in with traffic.
One thing that worries me is that people are already saying e-scooter users will HAVE to wear helmets, and that could re-enforce the (IMHO wrong) opinion that cyclist should also.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby kwackers » 2 Feb 2020, 8:38pm

fastpedaller wrote:I should think e-scooter riders will face danger if they're mixing in with traffic.
One thing that worries me is that people are already saying e-scooter users will HAVE to wear helmets, and that could re-enforce the (IMHO wrong) opinion that cyclist should also.

There's no aspect of e-scooter use that doesn't apply to bicycles and vice versa (including folk saying you have to wear a helmet).

Similar speed (probably slower - I've overtaken a fair number on my bike), same width and so same visibility.
Should be on the roads (or cycle paths) not on pavements and if the roads are too dangerous for scooters then they're too dangerous for bicycles.

Currently I reckon they're probably safer by virtue of being unusual - even as a cyclist I spot them a mile up the road whereas I probably wouldn't notice a cyclist a similar distance away.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby fastpedaller » 2 Feb 2020, 10:26pm

kwackers wrote:There's no aspect of e-scooter use that doesn't apply to bicycles and vice versa (including folk saying you have to wear a helmet).


I've not ridden a powered scooter, but scooted a manual powered one in my early years :wink:
I'd think their handling and stability may be very poor compared to a bike - do they have brakes? the drivetrain is perhaps the braking? I'd suggest whatever braking they have would be limited by their tendency to lift the rear wheel dramatically (a lot worse than a bicycle) due to the combination of poor weight distribution and very short wheelbase, but I'm willing to be corrected of course.
Last edited by fastpedaller on 3 Feb 2020, 9:04am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby hemo » 3 Feb 2020, 12:01am

e scooters with their tiny wheels stand more chance of spitting it's rider to the ground then a larger wheel bike or ebike, helmets will be more beneficial to e scooter riders.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby kwackers » 3 Feb 2020, 9:23am

fastpedaller wrote:
kwackers wrote:There's no aspect of e-scooter use that doesn't apply to bicycles and vice versa (including folk saying you have to wear a helmet).


I've not ridden a powered scooter, but scooted a manual powered one in my early years :wink:
I'd think their handling and stability may be very poor compared to a bike - do they have brakes? the drivetrain is perhaps the braking? I'd suggest whatever braking they have would be limited by their tendency to lift the rear wheel dramatically (a lot worse than a bicycle) due to the combination of poor weight distribution and very short wheelbase, but I'm willing to be corrected of course.

I've ridden one a few times (there are a couple in the office now).
They handle a lot better than a manual scooter by virtue of more weight, bigger wheels, pneumatic tyres etc In fact I was quite surprised by how well they rode - I expected a lot worse. Stability in particular - something I expected to be far worse was actually pretty good and they're a lot more manoeuvrable.

Braking is worse than a bicycle - but probably not by as much as you think. The one I've tried used the front wheel motor to brake the front wheel and had a disc at the back, so under hard braking the front didn't lock (the rear did) but in reality I think the scooter at 15mph can stop better (i.e shorter) than my bicycle at 20mph (and probably a lot better than the increasing number of bicycles I see with no brakes at all).

You can't bunny hop them up kerbs and you'd need to keep your eyes open for any decent pot holes but you'd be doing that on a bicycle anyway, obviously the small wheels increase the chances of decent pot holes throwing you off but you'd ride with that in mind - just as I take more care on my folder compared to my tourer.

I think overall my opinion that if roads are dangerous for scooters then they're dangerous for bikes stands.

As a commuter "last mile" vehicle I think they're preferable to a folding bike and tbh I think I'd dump my folder in favour of one tomorrow.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby mjr » 3 Feb 2020, 9:35am

hemo wrote:e scooters with their tiny wheels stand more chance of spitting it's rider to the ground then a larger wheel bike or ebike, helmets will be more beneficial to e scooter riders.

They'd need to have a different design to bike helmets because it seems like you're much more likely to face plant (bike helmet no use, at best) than go over the handlebars and land on the top of your head (bike helmet intended and tested protection).
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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby reohn2 » 3 Feb 2020, 10:04am

IMO the problem isn't e-scooters,e-bikes or bikes at all,but the sheer lack of forethought by the public and authotities on what future town and city centre travel should be like.
One thing's for sure things can't carry on as they are but almost no one's making any real serious progress for change AFAICS.
On pollution levels alone the private car needs stopping from entering in total but for a very few strictly monitored exceptions,Taxis and public transport should be green 'n clean,deliveries being made either by clean transport or when there's least footfall in the case of larger unavoidably polluting L/HGV deliveries,and there should be way,way more road space and priority given over to active travel.
Manchester with Burnham and Boardman working toward that end but it's a slow haul against much opposition locally.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby pete75 » 3 Feb 2020, 4:49pm

Do e-scooters ride and brake any differently to a normal petrol scooter. This is a Vespa e-scooter. Doesn't appear vastly different to their petrol versions.


Image

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby 100%JR » 3 Feb 2020, 6:04pm

The one you've pictured is still classed as a motor vehicle and comes under the same laws.The one's proposed to be made legal are these types:-
Image

Image

Along the lines of a kids scooter but with a electric motor rather than a Motor Scooter(Vespa/Peugeot/Yamaha etc) with an electric engine :wink:
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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby pete75 » 3 Feb 2020, 7:10pm

100%JR wrote:The one you've pictured is still classed as a motor vehicle and comes under the same laws.The one's proposed to be made legal are these types:-
Image

Image

Along the lines of a kids scooter but with a electric motor rather than a Motor Scooter(Vespa/Peugeot/Yamaha etc) with an electric engine :wink:


I thought they were legal - there appear to be lots of them about. My son had one years ago when he was 12 - bought it at Tesco with his birthday money.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby kwackers » 3 Feb 2020, 8:32pm

pete75 wrote:I thought they were legal - there appear to be lots of them about. My son had one years ago when he was 12 - bought it at Tesco with his birthday money.

Technically he was breaking the law. ;)

The "legal-in-other-countries" scooters are basically similar to e-bikes; 250w and 15mph - although since you can't assist them they accelerate somewhat more slowly.
Here in the UK they've basically fallen between the gaps in legislation so are by default illegal rather than explicitly legislated against.

Main advantage is they fold up almost flat - brilliant for trains, stood on their end they take up no room. Less dirty looks from other commuters!
No dirty bits; chain etc to catch your clothes so you could in theory ride them in a suit if you so desired.
Easy to carry once folded.
Almost no maintenance.
Easy to store at home or at work.
Fits easily into a small cars boot.

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Re: Dangerous cycling bill introduced to HoL with e-bike and e-scooter inclusion

Postby fullupandslowingdown » 6 Feb 2020, 5:49pm

so, if scooters do become road legal subject to perhaps a 15mph limit, how about getting the maximum assisted speed for electric bikes raised to 25mph. any thoughts? In the same way that the illegal use of CBs in the UK eventually led to them being legalised, albeit in a slightly different format to the ones used and imported from the usa etc, we all know of cyclists who have electric bikes capable of trashing the legal speed, whether by design or by tampering. Legalise and control through sensible proportionate licensing.