Why wear black?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
BlueRider
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Joined: 12 Dec 2019, 6:57pm

Re: Why wear black?

Postby BlueRider » 7 Feb 2020, 8:20am

Cunobelin wrote:
mattheus wrote:
BlueRider wrote:Well, at least we have given up on the pretence that either Hi vis or helmets are useless :D

Do you mean posting references?


Or in fact any evidence. that proved HiViz wasn't useless?




https://www.itravelyork.info/cycling/ro ... -at-night/


Note the cyclist in the background in the 1st picture.

Most noticeable because, wait for it,....

Hi.vis.

Smudgerii
Posts: 95
Joined: 10 Jul 2016, 8:41pm

Re: Why wear black?

Postby Smudgerii » 7 Feb 2020, 8:35am

BlueRider wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
mattheus wrote:Do you mean posting references to research that shows helmets are very probably useless for preventing TBIs?


Or in fact any evidence. that proved HiViz wasn't useless?


At this point, these arguments are bordering on wummery.

https://www.itravelyork.info/cycling/ro ... -at-night/


Note the cyclist in the background in the 1st picture.

Most noticeable because, wait for it,....

Hi.vis.


Or is it he LGV’s headlight highlighting him? First thing I noticed was a bike with no lights...

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 7 Feb 2020, 9:29am

BlueRider wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
mattheus wrote:Do you mean posting references?


Or in fact any evidence. that proved HiViz wasn't useless?




https://www.itravelyork.info/cycling/ro ... -at-night/


Note the cyclist in the background in the 1st picture.

Most noticeable because, wait for it,....

Hi.vis.



And the use of seeing them that far off (even though we've already seen the cyclist in the foreground eclipsing the scene behind (really quite good contrast there).

There isn't any. High vis does nothing to improve your visibility in the relevant region of space - but does put people off a healthy mode of transport.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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BlueRider
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby BlueRider » 7 Feb 2020, 10:04am

[XAP]Bob wrote:
High vis does nothing to improve your visibility in the relevant region of space - but does put people off a healthy mode of transport.


Righto

Smudgerii
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Joined: 10 Jul 2016, 8:41pm

Re: Why wear black?

Postby Smudgerii » 7 Feb 2020, 10:45am

The title of the subject is “why wear black?”, so to get back on to the subject...

The answer remains, because you can! It really is that simple.

mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Why wear black?

Postby mattheus » 7 Feb 2020, 10:53am

Smudgerii wrote:The title of the subject is “why wear black?”, so to get back on to the subject...

The answer remains, because you can! It really is that simple.


Also, I find it very slimming.


Does the forum recommend I try stripes? :?

Smudgerii
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Joined: 10 Jul 2016, 8:41pm

Re: Why wear black?

Postby Smudgerii » 7 Feb 2020, 11:05am

mattheus wrote:
Smudgerii wrote:The title of the subject is “why wear black?”, so to get back on to the subject...

The answer remains, because you can! It really is that simple.


Also, I find it very slimming.


Does the forum recommend I try stripes? :?


They need to be vertical to carry off the optical illusion... apparently width is the key :)

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RickH
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Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: Why wear black?

Postby RickH » 7 Feb 2020, 11:15am

By a quirk of geography I can see what phase a set of lights, that I regularly pass through, is on from our house.

The fact that I can see them, & whether they are red or green, is of absolutely no relevance as they are around 2 miles away.

The lights only start to become relevant as they come into view approximately here (& even then I'm probably at least twice as far as I need to be to have to consider what phase they are on).

Screenshot_20200207-105352.png

rfryer
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby rfryer » 7 Feb 2020, 12:47pm

In answer to the question about the value of being more conspicuous(*) at a distance...

In town, I don't see any value. Many motorists simply drive within their immediate surroundings, as is obvious when you see them accelerate towards traffic lights and then brake at the last minute, taken completely by surprise that the light has suddenly entered their little bubble.

Out of town, I see things differently. There have been a number of times when travelling on country A-roads at night that I've seen a remarkably conspicuous cyclist in the middle distance. "Remarkably" in the sense that I've remarked to my passenger about their presence. Due to bends in the road, etc, the cyclist has been temporarily hidden at various points until I eventually caught up and passed them, but the early warning meant that I was expecting them, and taking extra care with blind corners and dazzle from oncoming traffic. Did this make any difference to the cyclist? Probably not, I'm generally a pretty careful driver anyway, and don't make a habit of careering round corners into the unknown. But my reaction to the cyclist did make me especially careful, and persuades me that being conspicuous in those conditions has value.

Having said that, the problem I have with hi-viz, and reflectives, is that you need a light to be shining at you. I worry about cars coming out of side roads, especially in poor weather, and not seeing(**) a cyclist on the road they are joining. The only reliable defence here is a good strong headlight and positive road positioning - the colour of your clothing doesn't make a lot of difference.

(*) I much prefer "conspicuous" to "visible", not least because it stops mjr from going off on one!

(**) I know that one can argue in circles about why the cyclist wasn't seen, and who's fault that is, and how it shouldn't be the case, and that some drivers will pull out even if they have seen the cyclist. However, my observation is that, as a driver, it's easy to be tempted to look in the right direction, but not to ensure that you've seen everything there is to see. That's often laziness, but also is sometimes very hard to avoid. If as a driver pulling out, I wind down my right hand window window, squint through the driving rain looking for barely lit cyclists, then do the same on the passenger side, it's already time to start over, because a new barely-lit cyclist may have entered the area of risk. Sometimes, you simply need to rely on other road users making themselves sufficiently conspicuous.

Vorpal
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Vorpal » 7 Feb 2020, 1:52pm

Most of the stuff about helmets has been moved to the ghetto viewtopic.php?f=41&t=135350
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 7 Feb 2020, 2:11pm

BlueRider wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
mattheus wrote:Do you mean posting references?


Or in fact any evidence. that proved HiViz wasn't useless?




https://www.itravelyork.info/cycling/ro ... -at-night/


Note the cyclist in the background in the 1st picture.

Most noticeable because, wait for it,....

Hi.vis.

Quite right. It kind of proves the point without even saying anything :lol:

mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Why wear black?

Postby mattheus » 7 Feb 2020, 2:17pm

rfryer wrote:(*) I much prefer "conspicuous" to "visible", not least because it stops mjr from going off on one!

:DDDDD But seriously, that's a very helpful term.

(**) I know that one can argue in circles about why the cyclist wasn't seen, and who's fault that is, and how it shouldn't be the case, and that some drivers will pull out even if they have seen the cyclist. However, my observation is that, as a driver, it's easy to be tempted to look in the right direction, but not to ensure that you've seen everything there is to see. That's often laziness, but also is sometimes very hard to avoid. If as a driver pulling out, I wind down my right hand window window, squint through the driving rain looking for barely lit cyclists, then do the same on the passenger side, it's already time to start over, because a new barely-lit cyclist may have entered the area of risk. Sometimes, you simply need to rely on other road users making themselves sufficiently conspicuous.


I understand what you're saying, HOWEVER:
- Really bad visibility is quite unusual. As a rider, you would probably be even more untrusting of other road users (risk compensation maybe??)

- we've all either been victim of, or heard stories of, SMIDSYs (and near misses) in perfect conditions, or with riders that are Lit Up Like Christmas Trees. I know I was one such victim (and I survived a head injury, stitches in my forehead and everything - it was a miracle!!!!)

So i guess I'm saying that your reasonable point makes very little difference to the real numbers of the risk out there. IMHO!

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 7 Feb 2020, 5:43pm

BlueRider wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
mattheus wrote:Do you mean posting references?


Or in fact any evidence. that proved HiViz wasn't useless?




https://www.itravelyork.info/cycling/ro ... -at-night/


Note the cyclist in the background in the 1st picture.

Most noticeable because, wait for it,....

Hi.vis.


Image

Note the outer cars in the picture.

Most noticeable because, wait for it,....

Hi.vis.

Is that unequivocal proof for HiViz on cars, are you going to demand its use. Should all cars be HIViz?

The other reason for this photograph is that the conditions are the same for all the vehicles. A genuine comparison, as opposed to the photoshopped dishonesty you have chosen

The difference in your picture is contrived, to try and make a point.

Image


The reasons the cyclist is more visible
1. The exposure is different making the rider more visible
2. The contrast of the image is different makingthe rider more visible.
3. The rider now has lights making him more visible
4. There is now a light source illuminating the bike and cyclist


Look at the bike itself, it becomes more visible because of the con trick with lighting, exposure and contrast, nothing at all to do with HiViz. You nneed to compare the same conditions to make the claim that you are making. At the moment all that is really "Proven" is that Photoshop aids visibility in cyclists!!!!!!

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 7 Feb 2020, 5:51pm

Smudgerii wrote:
mattheus wrote:
Smudgerii wrote:The title of the subject is “why wear black?”, so to get back on to the subject...

The answer remains, because you can! It really is that simple.


Also, I find it very slimming.


Does the forum recommend I try stripes? :?


They need to be vertical to carry off the optical illusion... apparently width is the key :)


Image

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 7 Feb 2020, 5:56pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:
BlueRider wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Or in fact any evidence. that proved HiViz wasn't useless?




https://www.itravelyork.info/cycling/ro ... -at-night/


Note the cyclist in the background in the 1st picture.

Most noticeable because, wait for it,....

Hi.vis.

Quite right. It kind of proves the point without even saying anything :lol:


See the comments, ask yourself why the detail on the bike is more visible in picture 2.

Why are the forks, handlebars bell more visible without the benefit of HiViz?

Photoshopped images are hardly unequivocal proof of anything