Touring tyre for a narrow rim

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pwa
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Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby pwa » 14 Feb 2020, 12:39pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
pwa wrote:This is the very worst section of our route, which I know will be a test for any 28mm tyre. But apart from about 3 miles in total of this we will have 450 miles of something resembling tarmac.

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1997060

In that case use what you have and carry a spare tyre, which would be prudent on tours anyway.
If you were doing two thousand miles maybe careful choice of tyres, but 450 not so much so.
People go on about reducing pressures but keeping air in prevents those snake bites, on or off road.

When I did the devon and corwall coast last year I had an all up weight of about 100-105 kgs on 23mm tyres with no protection.
Started on 120 psi and finished on about 80psi as I did not put any air in in over a week.
I had to negotiate many off road cycle paths including greenlanes in the dark, but not a single flat or sliced tyre.

Just a thought :)

Yes, I think we can be a bit too cautious about what we can or can't do on narrow tyres. Clearly you wouldn't throw a narrow tyred bike down a gravel track with the same gusto you would with a wide tyred MTB but you can can still pick your way down. Tyres over 32mm aren't an option anyway. I'll have another look at her bike tomorrow because if I can get a 32mm Supreme on the front, that would be problem solved. I just don't want any stupid fag paper clearances.

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NUKe
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Location: Suffolk

Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby NUKe » 14 Feb 2020, 1:52pm

Panaracer passelas TG
Marathon Greenguard
continental Gatorskins, hard shells if you want that bit more PP
NUKe
_____________________________________

mcshroom
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 12:00am

Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby mcshroom » 14 Feb 2020, 2:04pm

Continental Grand Sport Extra in 28mm is another option. I've used mine on gravel worse than that before and they've been fine

iandusud
Posts: 244
Joined: 26 Mar 2018, 1:35pm

Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby iandusud » 14 Feb 2020, 6:08pm

pwa wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
pwa wrote:This is the very worst section of our route, which I know will be a test for any 28mm tyre. But apart from about 3 miles in total of this we will have 450 miles of something resembling tarmac.

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1997060

In that case use what you have and carry a spare tyre, which would be prudent on tours anyway.
If you were doing two thousand miles maybe careful choice of tyres, but 450 not so much so.
People go on about reducing pressures but keeping air in prevents those snake bites, on or off road.

When I did the devon and corwall coast last year I had an all up weight of about 100-105 kgs on 23mm tyres with no protection.
Started on 120 psi and finished on about 80psi as I did not put any air in in over a week.
I had to negotiate many off road cycle paths including greenlanes in the dark, but not a single flat or sliced tyre.

Just a thought :)

Yes, I think we can be a bit too cautious about what we can or can't do on narrow tyres. Clearly you wouldn't throw a narrow tyred bike down a gravel track with the same gusto you would with a wide tyred MTB but you can can still pick your way down. Tyres over 32mm aren't an option anyway. I'll have another look at her bike tomorrow because if I can get a 32mm Supreme on the front, that would be problem solved. I just don't want any stupid fag paper clearances.


This is your issue not the the width of your rim. Whilst the ideal tyre section for your rim might be "up to 28mm" in reality going wider within reason is not going to be a problem. Clearances however are going to dictate how wide you can go. I would generally look for tyres that have a light carcass because they will give the best ride but you may favour robustness, but this will affect the quality of the ride.

Cheers, Ian

irc
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Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby irc » 14 Feb 2020, 6:52pm


PH
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Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby PH » 14 Feb 2020, 10:06pm

pwa wrote:One advantage of the Pasela 32mm suggestion is that I have an old semi-knackered one in the garage and can play around with it to see how the clearance works on the bike in question. It is a tyre that will need care on gravel, but I never found them as fragile as some people suggested. I think they may come up a bit small too, which may assist with clearance.

Brucey's idea of a wider tyre on the back gets me thinking. The back doesn't have the same clearance issues. It is also where most of the weight is taken.

I haven't used Paselas for over a decade but I understand sometime between then and now they sorted their sizing out and they're now closer to what the label says. It used to be a bit of a joke, I had some 32's that were just a fraction over 28! Like you I never had an issue with sidewalls, though you can see they're not as robust as most. These were a favorite among Audax riders when I started, I'm not sure if they've just fallen out of fashion or other tyres caught up. I've been using a wider tyre on the back than the front for a few years, just seems to make sense even without the clearance requirement. 28/32 for Audax, 32/35 for touring and 35/37 on the everyday bike. I've ridden the Taff Trail as a DIY Audax, without luggage but I'm no lightweight, 28mm conti 4S on the front 32mm Supreme, I don't remember that section, I do remember how dirty it was in the foul weather, the tyres must have been fine or I'd remember otherwise.

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Sweep
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Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby Sweep » 14 Feb 2020, 10:43pm

mcshroom wrote:Continental Grand Sport Extra in 28mm is another option. I've used mine on gravel worse than that before and they've been fine


Are these anything like Conti Top Touring which I always liked in 28mm but got discontinued.

In an effort to understand their now confusing branding (they seem to have ambitions to rival Vittoria) I wandered onto their stand at a recent London cycling event. Asked them the question. But fear I have forgotten the answer.

edit - apparently they aren't after a bit of online research.

Back to the back of the class on conti tyres for me.
Sweep

Carlton green
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Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby Carlton green » 14 Feb 2020, 11:54pm

pwa wrote:The rim in question is the old Mavic Open Pro Ceramic which, if memory serves, was recommended to have tyres no wider than 28mm.

The bike (wife's) will be carrying her and 2 panniers, mainly on road but with stretches of carefully negotiated forest track.

Any suggestions on tyres that may fit the bill?

If the rim were not limiting, the frame also crates clearance issues so wider touring tyres are not an option.

Current tyres on the bike are old Marathon Supremes in 28mm but they don't do the new versions in that size.


Lots of suggestions coming in but three questions come to my mind.

1) Could you measure and confirm the internal (seating) width of your wheel (15mm?)
2) What width does your current tyre inflate to?
3) With say 3mm clearance per side what is the maximin installed width of inflated tyre you could accommodate? (A measured 32 mm?)

( Edit. I believe that answers from others that say I run tyre ‘x’ on rims of internal width ‘y’ and they inflate to width ‘z’ would give you a good guide as to what to expect on your rim.)

I’ve found that the stated size of a tyre is merely a guide and certainly not uniform between brands and models, the bike I’m using at the moment has notionally the same size tyres at front and back but the brand/model at the back inflates wider than the one at the front. Wider at the back that at the front hasn’t been an issue for me and is used on some motorcycles. I’ve also found that tyres inflate to a narrower width on narrower rims.

I prefer to ride on fatter tyres when I can so sought out the broadest 27 x 1&1/4” rims and tyres that I could find. However, thinking about it, what’s made the biggest difference to (my) wheel integrity is the rim section (box) rigidly and wheel build quality. You can’t alter the rim section but you might like to check out the wheel’s spokes, etc, with a view to how true and robust the wheel is now and how it can be simply optimised to be better.

Edit. Attention to detail is important, it can make all the difference between something working or not. However there’s always a case for just doing something and seeing what happens in practice. Manufacturers make their recommendations but I’m inclined to view some as more flexible guides than absolute (ridged) rules - push a bit at the boundaries.
Last edited by Carlton green on 15 Feb 2020, 10:33am, edited 3 times in total.

NickJP
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Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby NickJP » 15 Feb 2020, 6:01am

The wheels on my touring bike use Mavic MA2 rims, which are slightly narrower internally than Open Pro rims, and I've been running 36-37mm wide tyres on it for at least 20 years without any problems. I've had it across the Alps and Pyrenees with that configuration. In fact, in the early days of MTBs, Keith Bontrager cut down 36h 700c MA2 rims to make lightweight 32h 26" rims, and those rims were routinely used with tyres in the 50mm width range without problem.

The only downside with fat tyres on narrow rims is that you need some way of releasing the brake arms when taking a wheel out. With my cantilever brakes, I pop one side of the stirrup cable/link wire out of its housing in the end of the cantilever arm, and that allows me to drop the wheel out.

dim
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Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby dim » 15 Feb 2020, 7:26am

I'd use Panaracer Gravel King

pwa
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Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby pwa » 15 Feb 2020, 10:33am

Carlton green wrote:
pwa wrote:The rim in question is the old Mavic Open Pro Ceramic which, if memory serves, was recommended to have tyres no wider than 28mm.

The bike (wife's) will be carrying her and 2 panniers, mainly on road but with stretches of carefully negotiated forest track.

Any suggestions on tyres that may fit the bill?

If the rim were not limiting, the frame also crates clearance issues so wider touring tyres are not an option.

Current tyres on the bike are old Marathon Supremes in 28mm but they don't do the new versions in that size.


Lots of suggestions coming in but three questions come to my mind.

1) Could you measure and confirm the internal (seating) width of your wheel (15mm?)
2) What width does your current tyre inflate to?
3) With say 3mm clearance per side what is the maximin with of inflated tyre you could accommodate?

I’ve found that the stated size of a tyre is merely a guide and certainly not uniform between brands and models, the bike I’m using at the moment has notionally the same size tyres at from and back but the brand/model at the back inflates wider than the one at the front. I’ve also found that tyres inflate to a narrower width on narrower rims.

I prefer to ride on fatter tyres when I can so sought out the broadest 27 x 1&1/4” rims and tyres that I could find. However what’s made the biggest difference to (my) wheel integrity is the rim section (box) rigidly and wheel build quality. You can’t alter the rim section but you might like to check out the wheel’s spokes, etc, with a view to how true and robust it is/can be simply optimised.

The next storm is brewing outside right now so I'm not feeling like treking out to the garage to look at the bike. But I'm sure the Open pros must be in the 15mm sort of area. The 28mm Supremes on the wheel at the moment do have some clearance around the inside of the guards. And nominally at least I am only looking for another 4mm for a 32mm tyre. The pinch point is the mudguard bracket where the stays are (SKS Chromoplastics) which is a bit narrow. A wider version of the mudguard would solve the width issue, but I've spent a lot on bikes recently and am trying to resist further spending. I intend looking at it to see if some careful bending / manipulation might win me another 2 or 3mm, which could make all the difference. I think a 32mm tyre would fit in already but with little clearance.

My own theory with mudguard installation is that the leading edge (i.e. the rear edge of the guard) should be closer to the tyre than the rest of the guard so that anything that is carried on the tyre beyond that point is not going to find a narrower gap further along, especially at the fork crown.

Brucey
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Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby Brucey » 15 Feb 2020, 10:45am

pwa wrote:
I'm sure the Open pros must be in the 15mm sort of area.


they are nominally 15C but often measure nearer 14.5mm , as noted upthread

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

slowster
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Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby slowster » 15 Feb 2020, 11:30am

pwa wrote:The 28mm Supremes on the wheel at the moment do have some clearance around the inside of the guards. And nominally at least I am only looking for another 4mm for a 32mm tyre. The pinch point is the mudguard bracket where the stays are (SKS Chromoplastics) which is a bit narrow. A wider version of the mudguard would solve the width issue, but I've spent a lot on bikes recently and am trying to resist further spending.

A set of new Bluemels 45mm mudguards is £22. That's less than the cost of a pair of the tyres being suggested. Moreover, it sounds like this is something which needs to be changed, i.e. if you don't do it now you will end up doing it later. So all you will be doing is putting the expenditure off for a while, rather than avoiding it completely.

Given that muguard clearance is a safety critical issue, and fitting wider tyres could make a significant difference in comfort for a multi-day tour, I would bite the bullet and replace them.

pwa
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Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby pwa » 15 Feb 2020, 11:46am

slowster wrote:
pwa wrote:The 28mm Supremes on the wheel at the moment do have some clearance around the inside of the guards. And nominally at least I am only looking for another 4mm for a 32mm tyre. The pinch point is the mudguard bracket where the stays are (SKS Chromoplastics) which is a bit narrow. A wider version of the mudguard would solve the width issue, but I've spent a lot on bikes recently and am trying to resist further spending.

A set of new Bluemels 45mm mudguards is £22. That's less than the cost of a pair of the tyres being suggested. Moreover, it sounds like this is something which needs to be changed, i.e. if you don't do it now you will end up doing it later. So all you will be doing is putting the expenditure off for a while, rather than avoiding it completely.

Given that muguard clearance is a safety critical issue, and fitting wider tyres could make a significant difference in comfort for a multi-day tour, I would bite the bullet and replace them.

It may come to that. If ten minutes of faffing around in the garage does not produce a satisfactory result, and mudguard width seems to be the issue. The tyres will be bought anyway. The current rubber has been on a while and will need replacing before the tour.

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Touring tyre for a narrow rim

Postby pwa » 15 Feb 2020, 11:59am

I have to say at this point that this thread ( which I started) has been very constructive and has helped me hone down on the issues and develop a clear path forward. Great contributions from everyone. Thanks.