"And now the freedom to say that some Transgender people are cheats in sport and to discuss the issue of men and women pretending to be a different gender can be upheld in law ?
From the Telegraph today; (Actually yesterday).
"Police compared to Stasi and Gestapo by judge as he rules they interfered in freedom of speech by investigating 'non crime' trans tweet"
"Holding a copy of George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, he added: "I'm going to continue tweeting, I'm going to continue campaigning and I'm going to continue standing with women in order to secure their sex-based rights.
"This judgment today has told us that we can do that and, if the police come knocking, say: 'Miller v Humberside Police, bugger off!"'
Is 0.02% of the population really causing this amount of angst and anger .... no! can't be ...... Unless that 0.02% seek to force their agenda on to the rest of society ....
However i suspect it's not the 0.02% of the population that are trying to force anything ... possibly they just want to exist in their own space .... it will be militant political "persons" that are "horrified" and "angry" at the supposed treatment of trans people that will be causing the greatest noise.
My son lived as "Kate" for 2 years .. Invisible within the Gay community. Visible to others when having lunch with his dad in the centre of Nottingham, but no negative comments where ever forthcoming even in Wetherspoons on a Friday evening ... his greatest fear was he would be used as a totem by those outside the Gay community ... And it came to pass .... He was approached by Nottingham Uni SU to be their "Face of Trans" .... HE RAN A MILE ... moved to Manchester for 8 months and came home as John ....
The approach by Notts Uni was not the reason for his return to John ... but it was a catalyst...
Very well put. As an older male I've realised tolerance is vital to everyone going about their lives in peace. What annoys me and I suspect others, is the focus that pressure groups seem to be able to achieve in the media. This, to my mind, just amplifies people's prejudice and does nothing to reduce discrimination. In the end does it make any difference to how i treat someone if that person doesn't fit in with what the perception of what is 'normal'. I new an orthopedic surgeon who stated life as male but became female. His patients didn't suffer as a consequence.
carpetcleaner wrote:It's a complex matter. But I think we can assume that transgender people competing in women's events and the consequent complaints from some other competitors is not a women's rights issue.
That's because women's rights group have been silent, just as they were about recent events in Rochdale and Rotherham, another controversy involving a relatively small number of aggrieved women.
I wish I could point you in the direction of a story from last year, perhaps linked to on the trans in sport thread. It was about a well respected female academic and significant researcher into women's studies, gender and families matters too I believe. She raised a few questions regarding gender and trans people specifically from a women's pov. It was to raise points for discussion, because let's face it there's a big discussion needed about trans, gender and society. She got trolled big time by trans community and supporters. That I believe started 2018. In 2019 she died from long term illness. All through the period she was fighting for her life she was getting hate and abuse from the trans community for having a discussion. Imho such an open and honest discussion would help everyone in society.
Anyway, once dead I believe that trans sports women made a few hateful tweets something along the lines of being pleased she's dead and dancing on her grave.
No matter what your position on trans people and their place in society, they must fit into all of society afterall, when one side descends into abuse they lose credibility and public support imho. We need better debate and discussion on this area, even better research. It's not working as it is.
Btw don't take this post as being against anyone. I have issues with some strands of feminism, masculism (if that's a term for the worst of Male views) and others. I am against abuse and for open debate without fear of abuse. It seems abuse is becoming part of the trans rights campaign. I hope that's wrong but it's my feeling right now.
pwa wrote:But Boris is a person who has put himself in a public position. The trans person that I know is quiet and minds her own business and for her to have her life choices attacked for no good reason is spiteful. It amounts to bullying. Just like in a playground when the kid who is a bit different gets picked on by the crowd. The rest of us have to stand up for them.
I'm not sure about the individuals who were arrested, and whether they should have been. I'd have to see all their comments in the context of the conversations they were involved in. But I won't put up with bullying where I see it.
+1 for standing up for anyone being bullied. Bullying is something of which I (along with, I suspect, a lot of people on this forum) have quite some experience, mostly from childhood in my case. Nothing related to the trans movement(s), but there are two aspects of recent news items that seem very - make that horribly - familiar.
One one hand, I think I can relate to the anger of the trans supporters. I was bullied because of my unusual height, and it reached the point where any mention of my height felt like a personal attack. Sometimes I would preemptively insult people because I was sure they were against me. Sometimes their response 'proved' me right. I know now that that was a terrible way to deal with it, but at the time I hardly even knew I was doing it. I therefore have a degree of sympathy for people who have a chip on their shoulders, even if I don't agree with their methods.
On the other hand, I've also been on the receiving end of people who play the victim card when it is clearly inappropriate. To be clear, I'm with TM and Landsurfer here: my beef is with the minority that spends its energy attacking people and calling the teacher - sorry, police - whenever somebody dares to disagree (or even dares to ask a question they don't want to answer).
As a child I was not in a recognised victim group. In one school in particular, children who were physically small would generally be believed if they said they were being bullied, regardless of how many times they had to taunt their "attacker" to provoke a reaction. Some children realised this gave them an advantage, and some of them made use of it. A major "what the heck?" moment for me came when I read some of my old school reports: the same teachers who taught "pick on someone your own size or someone bigger than you" were mystified as to why the biggest child in the school had so little confidence.
The point is, when somebody in authority becomes too focused on protecting a specific set of "victims", they might well end up causing more problems than they solve.
I know I'm only one person - the smallest minority of all - but I rejoice that I'm still allowed to say what I see. Being threatened with arrest because of something somebody thought I meant should not be an option anywhere, least of all in "innocent until proven guilty" Britain.
Everyone's ghast should get a good flabbering now and then. --Ole Boot
I grew up being the tall one in class. Tall and skinny. Primary school started with 2 or 3 years in the same class. We did a thing where we drew around the tallest and shortest in class. I was the tallest and my mate the shortest. We were in the first year of school. My son in reception was taller than over half the size of those in year 1.
The idea of big people being bullied rings a bell. I got noticed and bullied from reception year by kids but also teachers. I went from confident, outgoing preschooler to what would now be considered as being in a bad place for mental health. Gentle giant is common situation among the tall. We could be considered soft touch by many.
However, does this relate to trans situation? Are trans being bullied apart from by a minority? It's kind of becoming accepted by greater society but a minority of the community and supporters treat them as more of a victim group than I suspect they are. It's bred the trans attack dog type of online troll. That's not helpful for anyone. I get the impression the athlete in the other thread is one of those but at least she's up front with it. Just wonder how she escapes anti abuse rules on Twitter. Unless there aren't any or they're too scared of backlash. Freedom of speech could be reduced for those without a vocal and active lobby, the general public I suppose. Some minorities are good at outrage and getting higher levels of protection. Why not find a way of getting on with each other?
Are there any trans people on this forum? Maybe, in fact probably. But I would hate to think they have at any time felt hated by association. I do not defend the bullying of anyone by anyone. If Dr McKinnon has abused anyone then I don't believe that is OK because it's in retaliation or defence. Abuse is never OK. You can however criticise the actions of someone without resorting to calling them vile names and threatening their existence. Debate is about just that, questioning and criticising another's views I don't think free speech should extend to personal attack. For instance only a few months ago someone was called a paedophile by elon musk. elon didn't claim that the guy acted like a [derogatory word removed] or said something paedophilic. He outright said he was a paedophile. And he managed to get away with it too. That to me is an example of freedom of speech failing.
It is clear that there are many people who disagree with trans women competing against sis women. That is a perfectly fine opinion to hold, but just because you are talking about some stranger over in internet land somewhere, it doesn't make it right to call a trans woman athlete a cheat. You can call for a change in rules that allow the athlete to compete, thats an opinion again, but honestly, would you expect to go up to a someone in the pub and call them a cheat at poker or darts or whatever? Not if you didn't want a fight breaking out. You certainly wouldn't do that in a Russian bar or out in the wilds of Texas.
Honestly, if you can't debate an issue without making it personal with name calling and vitriolic abuse then shame on yourself. Try, just try to have a debate and stick only to the issue, the more you do it, the better you get at it. And it makes the actual debate better precisely because you are concentrating on the facts, not on personalities.
Another important exercise in spiritual/social development is the art of putting yourself in another's shoes. Try to imagine that you are a trans woman. Born and raised as a seemingly perfectly normal boy. But with this underlying nagging doubt, this confusion at the back of your mind. You feel you don't fit. Eventually you realise what it is. By no fault of your own, you are a woman born in a man's body. You didn't ask for that. No one deliberately made you that way, it is just the way it is. Medical studies suggest it is something to do with how the human develops it's sex characteristics. At several stages during the development of a fetus in the womb, there are, or should be carefully controlled boosts of hormones that determine which sex the body grows into ( we are all girls to begin with.... ) If sufficient testosterone floods the developing baby then it becomes the body of a male child, and then a second flood masculines the brain.
Just as there are a thousand and million other developmental issues such as 6 toes, hole in the heart, cleft palate, organs on the outside, blindness, deafness, autism, etc etc, so there is transsexualism. I can't really imagine, I can only extrapolate from experiences and observations how it feels to be a trans woman. I imagine it must be pretty horrible to begin with. Imagine when all your 'blokey' mates find out that you actually are a woman. Imagine how gutted you feel when you realise that you will never be able to give birth to a baby. Imagine how you feel that you are letting down your family. The consequences for your love life and romantic relationships. Imagine the problems involved in getting your true gender legally recognised. Problems in and barriers to employment. The problems you face in using public lavatories. Public abuse. Online abuse.... The health issues of transitioning. The long term health problems of suppressing the natural hormones and supplementing others. The list is endless.
25% of us in anyone year will suffer mental health issues. The biggest is depression and anxiety but other mental health issues too. Proven causes of poor mental health include, being the victim of crime, regular and systemic abuse, physical or sexual abuse, physical ill health and chronic pain.
So just think about that list of causes for mental health. Then think about the vast number of issues facing trans people. Again, I repeat myself, I do not condone anyone abusing anyone, whether it is Dr McKinnon or any of her detractors. But can you begin to understand how trans people might have a chip on the shoulder, might be more prickly, might be quicker to flare into self defence mode? I know if someone pokes a stick into my cage often enough, it's going to end up in them...
How long could you walk down the street getting stared at because you can't quite hide the affect that your genes had on your developing frame. If someone is lucky enough to fully realise what is eating away at them at an early enough age, and takes the right hormones, thereby changing the affects of puberty, the person can grow into woman that no one would think was anything other than a sis woman. People like Dr McKinnon didn't start therapy until after puberty ended, so they have to face the problems caused by having matured into adult males now wanting to transition into women. That must be extra tough on them. How do you reduce your frame size?
Tolerance and compassion. Show others tolerance and compassion, even if you don't understand their struggles in life, even if you don't agree with their lifestyle, their hairstyle or their frame colour. Life is too short any which way. Don't be a sad little hater that sits in a darkened room waiting to fire some abuse at the child that dies from cancer, just because they happen to be Muslim, or Jewish or African, or whatever your pet hate is today. Rise above it all. Condemn the action, not the actor.
fullupandslowingdown wrote:It is clear that there are many people who disagree with trans women competing against sis women. That is a perfectly fine opinion to hold, but just because you are talking about some stranger over in internet land somewhere, it doesn't make it right to call a trans woman athlete a cheat. You can call for a change in rules that allow the athlete to compete, thats an opinion again, but honestly, would you expect to go up to a someone in the pub and call them a cheat at poker or darts or whatever? Not if you didn't want a fight breaking out. You certainly wouldn't do that in a Russian bar or out in the wilds of Texas.
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The question here is, do we think a woman who was born as a man can compete in the same cohort as women who were born as women. The fact that in most sports we have a tradition of separating men and women is a recognition of the physical differences, the advantages of male development. If gender reassignment truly removed the physical advantage of male development I would have no problem at all. My concern is that women who were born as women could lose any hope of winning at the highest level because women born as men will occupy the top positions. If I were an athlete who had changed gender, and I started winning when I had not won in my former gender, I think I would feel like I had an unfair advantage. Maybe we just need more genders in competitions to take account of different ways of being.
It's a tricky issue and it needs level headed and fair minded folk to sort it out.
I'm not convinced trans people giving abuse is down to retaliation. Judging from what I've read about replies to open discussion about gender that moves into areas surrounding trans community it seems like a straight tactic to end such open discussions. It's attack the person not the ideas in order to silence them. That's without any abuse figuring in the discussion.
To me the best way to end abuse by changing minds is through open discussion and improving understanding. Right now we seem to me to being in a position where there are certain areas relating to trans people in wider society that need improved clarity. Sport and surrounding other vulnerable members of society are just two areas. Discussion is needed or one side or the other will feel aggrieved or negatively affected. The current situation seems to be to shutdown discussions working towards this. Instead replacing it with an idea that trans people get everything they want or they shout louder.
Tangled Metal wrote:I'm not convinced trans people giving abuse is down to retaliation. Judging from what I've read about replies to open discussion about gender that moves into areas surrounding trans community it seems like a straight tactic to end such open discussions. It's attack the person not the ideas in order to silence them. That's without any abuse figuring in the discussion.
To me the best way to end abuse by changing minds is through open discussion and improving understanding. Right now we seem to me to being in a position where there are certain areas relating to trans people in wider society that need improved clarity. Sport and surrounding other vulnerable members of society are just two areas. Discussion is needed or one side or the other will feel aggrieved or negatively affected. The current situation seems to be to shutdown discussions working towards this. Instead replacing it with an idea that trans people get everything they want or they shout louder.
I will be 60 later this year and never in my lifetime has being "different" had more widespread acceptance and support. Things have moved on a lot in the UK regarding gender identity issues, mostly for the better, but inevitably there are a few practical issues to work our way through. Participation in sport is one of them.
But while the High Court ruled that Humberside Police had acted unlawfully when they turned up at my work, the court also said that the policing guidance used by forces across the UK, which defines a hate crime as ‘any non-crime incident which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender’, was lawful. Bizarre as it sounds, according to this guidance, currently no evidence of hate is required for the hate element of a hate crime or hate incident; indeed, there is no need for any incident at all. And when anyone can shut down debate by claiming offence and reporting people to the police for non-criminal actions, we no longer live in a free society. That is why Fair Cop is appealing the High Court’s decision that the College of Policing’s Hate Crime Operational Guidance (HCOG) itself is lawful.
An interesting question is whether there is a statistical correlation between intersex people and transgenders. Apparantly there isnt. I understand that intersex has been put forward as a justification for transgender
A politician who doesn't know you're difference between gender and biological sex of an individual. It allows right wingers to get an angle to attack them on matters. If they incorrectly use sex then the right wing writer can flog it for all he's worth. Most likely a Male identifying right winger too.
