Did slavery really make Britain rich?

[simonineaston]

Dont make me complicit or responsible for these dead rich dudes deeds

Now there's the rub! As a member of the UK population, (I assume...) you have a share in the benefits of the country's shared assets, say for example our famous National Health Service and protection afforded you by our police and armed forces, whether you want them or not. It's all to do with being a UK citizen. Society argues that the same sort of share works with respect to our national culture and history. It's part of "who you are" - as a tax payer, passport holder, road user etc.etc., you'll have a hard time wiggling out of it! Indeed, I imagine there's a lot you wouldn't want to miss out on

[mercalia]

Dont make me complicit or responsible for these dead rich dudes deeds

Now there's the rub! As a member of the UK population, (I assume...) you have a share in the benefits of the country's shared assets, say for example our famous National Health Service and protection afforded you by our police and armed forces, whether you want them or not. It's all to do with being a UK citizen. Society argues that the same sort of share works with respect to our national culture and history. It's part of "who you are" - as a tax payer, passport holder, road user etc.etc., you'll have a hard time wiggling out of it! Indeed, I imagine there's a lot you wouldn't want to miss out on

what has that got to do with the slave trade that benefited a few rich dudes that denuded the states coffers to pay them off to stop slaving?

[ANTONISH]

Dont make me complicit or responsible for these dead rich dudes deeds

Now there's the rub! As a member of the UK population, (I assume...) you have a share in the benefits of the country's shared assets, say for example our famous National Health Service and protection afforded you by our police and armed forces, whether you want them or not. It's all to do with being a UK citizen. Society argues that the same sort of share works with respect to our national culture and history. It's part of "who you are" - as a tax payer, passport holder, road user etc.etc., you'll have a hard time wiggling out of it! Indeed, I imagine there's a lot you wouldn't want to miss out on

But don't the benefits apply to all members of the UK population regardless of ethnicity?
There are areas of poverty and all benefits aren't distributed equally - there are poor white and poor BAME - can you give a breakdown of the relative proportions?

[reohn2]

Vorpal
You're spot on.
My closest friend is mixed race(African black in appearance),his stories(which he doesn't share with everyone)would make many people's jaw drop they are so overt and crass,with the police being prime examples of institutionalised racism,constant and almost daily.
He's formerly an actor turned,bank manager,turned councillor and university mentor,a very articulate/intelligent person,musician and a linguist speaking four languages fluently,whose sunny and pleasant disposition never fails to brighten my day.

[Ben@Forest]

But don't the benefits apply to all members of the UK population regardless of ethnicity?
There are areas of poverty and all benefits aren't distributed equally - there are poor white and poor BAME - can you give a breakdown of the relative proportions?

There are also benefits of belonging to the Commonwealth. It's often slightly scorned by white British people but hey - 'check your privilege!' - if it's so anodyne why were the last two countries which joined it Mozambique (formerly a colony of Portugal) and Rwanda (formerly a colony of Germany then Belgium)?

Many years ago l met a woman who worked for the Commonwealth. I had a pretty uninformed view of it, when she talked about it and what it does l certainly changed my mind.

[Carlton green]

[vimeo][/vimeo]

Vorpal
You're spot on.

That might be the case but only in so far as some pellet from a shot gun hits the target and we then ignore all those other pellets that hit (and damage) something else. For a moment let’s not use the term racist but rather discriminatory in favour of people who are similar to you, such discrimination has happened through the centuries and has nothing to do with ‘race’ at all. There was a blood bath in India when it split after the Second World War and there were multiple other ones in former USSR countries when that Empire collapsed. Even though they were effectively racially the same differences in religion and culture set people against each other. If to a lesser level we have seen similar destruction in Ireland.

For various reasons BAME people appear to be more at risk from Coronavirus than ‘white’ people but informed opinion traces the dominant reason back to small differences in the genetics found in people from different parts of the planet. Some people’s natural genetics makes them more vulnerable to some diseases, it’s as simple as that.

Edit. See:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ecli ... 89-5370(20)30148-6/
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2011/au ... 56011.html


As above discrimination in this (and other) countries is far from a racial issue and IMHO anyone who thinks differently dangerously deludes themselves and others. Discrimination is a multilayered selection process in which we favour people similar to ourselves and I believe that that arrange is natural if, in today’s judgements, not socially acceptable. The predominant cultures in any country suppress others. BAME people and their supporters would do well to understand the universal and multifaceted nature of discrimination as it is applied to every member of society and to understand how much better off they are here, in the imperfect U.K., than in their ethnic countries of origin.

[reohn2]

Carton Green
If I could only agree with you about the genetics issue and C19 or that BAME people aren't discriminated against because of their colour.
But I can't so I won't until you prove otherwise.
So far I only have your opinion.

[Carlton green]

Carton Green
If I could only agree with you about the genetics issue and C19 or that BAME people aren't discriminated against because of their colour.
But I can't so I won't until you prove otherwise.
So far I only have your opinion.

I can but suggest to you that the World is more complex and varied than you seem to wish it to be.

You might find that these independent articles support the view that the issues are multifaceted:
https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsuppo ... e-patients
https://theconversation.com/coronavirus ... ent-138400

As for discrimination there are plenty of other equally bad forms beside colour and to over focus on colour is to make the issue worse. Ask women, homosexuals, gingers, hindoos (religion), older folk, disabled, and English men in other countries about discrimination and you’ll hear of plenty. Here’s a subtle form of discrimination for you: one of my children was being interviewed for a job and was asked whether they had a student loan or not. My child replied ‘yes’ (they had a loan) and later discovered that that question was there to filter out applicants from less well off backgrounds who would (the interviewer judged) not fit in with and meet the needs of the selecting company.

I grew up with and went to school with a lot of coloured people, some were good lads and some were not, and whilst the table of life might have been tilted against them the biggest factor by far on how well they did was always down to their own attitudes, values and application to the issues at hand. As I said in an earlier post the difficulties faced by BAME people are multifaceted and they would do well to remember that others are equally challenged by life.

[reohn2]

Carlton Green
I don't doubt the world is complex or that many other sections of society suffer discrimination,of that I'm well aware though that wasnt under discussion.
It was you who attempted to simplify the issue by claiming that BAME people were more genetically susceptible to C19 than white people which isn't a proven fact.

EDIT,just to add that I'm well aware that someone's attitude puts them in a better position,and that there are good and bad amongst any group,I've known and worked with all colour race and creed and take a person as I find them.

[philg]

Carlton Green

It was you who attempted to simplify the issue by claiming that BAME people were more genetically susceptible to C19 than white people which isn't a proven fact..

I believe it is a common enough view though

Pasteur institute 2016
'Their first observation was that the amplitude of the immune response in Africans and Europeans differed, especially in the case of genes involved in inflammatory and antiviral responses. These differences can largely be attributed to genetic variants, distributed differently among Africans and Europeans, which modulate the expression of immunity genes. This finding offers insights that can help shed light on why some populations are particularly susceptible to diseases such as lupus, which is more common in Africa than in Europe.'

Genetic Adaptation and Neandertal Admixture Shaped the Immune System of Human Populations, Cell, 20 octobre 2016. DOI : 10.1016/j.cell.2016.09.024

[reohn2]

Philg
It may be a common enough view but it still isn't fact.
If it were a known fact BAME people were more suseptable to C19 then why,in light of inadequate PPE,were they not relieved of such duties?
Or further shielding of BAME people in the community if they were more at risk?

This would have the knock on effect of less BAME people becoming infected and dying which would mean less infections as a whole as well as lessening the spread of the virus in the community IYSWIM.

By chance last week I heard the head of one of the nursing unions(I think but she was a high up nursing representative) on BBC R4 week end Woman's Hour*,when asked about why disproportionately more BAME nurses were becoming infected and dying of C19,answered simply that when individual nurses from all over the country were telling her that the lack PPE and the fact that disproportionately more BAME nurses than white nurses were being assigned to C19 ICU and care wards,one can only draw one conclusion.

*sorry searched BBC iplayer but can't find a link

EDITED for clarification.

[Vorpal]

There is no evidence to support any genetic factors resulting in higher deaths from COVID in the BAME population. None.

One of the articles Carlton Green linked aboved says

The study that found BAME people in England were more likely to die from the disease accounted for differences in some underlying health conditions that are strongly linked to social issues, suggesting these weren’t the main factor. But the preliminary results from another study suggest ethnic minorities aren’t more likely to die once other factors linked to deprivation are taken into account.

https://www.sapiens.org/body/covid-race-genetics/
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/vo ... -covid-19/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ral-racism

For what it is worth, in Norway, immigrants make up about 25% of total COVID-19 cases, even though they are only 15% of the population. They recognised early on (due to relatively high levels of testing) that COVID-19 was spreading faster in the Norwegian immigrant population, and especially Norwegian-Somali population and made a special effort to reach out to them with a multilingual / multimedia campaign about handwashing and social distancing. So, while in March, they made up 40% of new cases, they were able to reduce it, so that now it is 25% overall. I don't know the proportion for new cases, now.

Also, the rates are similar in Norway for blacks and Southeast Asians, which suggests it has nothing to do with genetics. The health authority in Norway says it is due to a combination of socio-economic factors and high representation in public-facing key worker jobs, such as transport drivers, delivery drivers, shop assistants, etc.

[merseymouth]

Hi, I think that the point is being missed when it is claimed that it is racial discrimination that is at the root of increased risk posed to the BAME groups by Covid 19.
If research proves a genetic variation is a contributing factor, I do say IF, then that would certainly rule out the racist slur, unless it is also alleged that the is a discriminatory under funding of the issues involved? Hopefully science will settle the disquiet over such an issue? MM

[philg]

https://www.sapiens.org/body/covid-race-genetics/
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/vo ... -covid-19/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ral-racism

Taken from the first reference above:
Some news articles have implied that “race” might have some biological effect on susceptibility to COVID-19. One example of this comes from the Naked Scientists, a group of scientists, doctors, and communicators based at Cambridge University’s Institute of Continuing Education who host an extremely popular podcast. On April 11, the group tweeted that, regarding this BAME disparity, “what’s unclear is whether it’s a race thing (and hence some underlying genetics, susceptibility to certain diseases), or if it’s a socioeconomic thing, or both.”

As a bioarchaeologist—and as a person—I find such statements problematic and shocking.

Perhaps as a supposed scientist, objectively she shouldn't?

As for the other two - an op-ed in a science comic and the bottom half of the internet comments column - well you might take all that as evidence I suppose

[thirdcrank]

IMO we might compare this with the casualties of the Grenfell Tower fire, many of whom were from what I'll term minorities.

Were these people

A Genetically especially vulnerable to smoke inhalation and the effects of jumping from the upper storeys of a tower block?

or

B Living in this type of accommodation through social class?