Europe is open - who's going?

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st599_uk
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby st599_uk » 7 Jul 2020, 12:41pm

ChrisF wrote:Most countries that one may want to go to are OK, but I'm puzzled that so many people seem keen to fly, cooped up in a small space with 200 other people for a couple of hours, when other public transport (buses and trains) is being avoided.
I'm booked on a ferry to France at the end of August, but I can see from Brittany Ferries' information that social distancing will be easy.


Buses, trains and ferries don't have air replacement and HEPA filtering.
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robertsurtees
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby robertsurtees » 7 Jul 2020, 3:23pm

MarcusT wrote:At this point I would not leave my own country. Things are still too volatile and the rules are changing everyday. 1 day things are fine, the next, there is a 14 day quarantine



I understand why you feel that way but we all have to carry out our own risk assessment. I wouldn't stray too far or go anywhere that would be difficult to get back from but I think northern Europe is pretty safe

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Morzedec
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby Morzedec » 7 Jul 2020, 4:44pm

If Brittany Ferries would start taking cyclists, I could go home for the first time in nearly six months!

Or I could go out and buy a car ..............

Not so happy days,

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mjr
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby mjr » 7 Jul 2020, 5:18pm

hamster wrote:
thornie1543 wrote:The thing i don't understand about not excepting foot/bike bookings is if on the ferry to spain for instance are they expecting all the people to sit in their vehicles for 24hrs of the crossing? when all those people get out of their cars and go into the ferry what difference would it make from a foot passenger/cyclist? .Except the part where they can keep people in their cars before boarding of course,but when they park and get out its all the same isnt it.oh well.


The reason is limited accommodation capacity. Reserved seating and cabins only, no casual mooching in the cafeteria etc. Reserved seating is also half empty for distancing. So, who do they want to sell the ticket to? Answer, somebody who is also paying for a car, PLUS it solves problems with distancing and sanitising in waiting areas, embarkation etc. There may also be a customs / immigration factor, may not be manned for the same distancing reasons.

Even if the accommodation capacity is limited, it still makes more sense to sell tickets to the vehicles paying more per kg and square metre because kg increases fuel consumption and square metrage is also limited. And who pays most per unit? Generally lorry trailers first and bicycles second, with the added bonus that bicycles generally use deck space that the lorries can't and even cars can't.

I don't see problems with distancing and sanitising in waiting areas for cyclists - I've always waited with the bike on the quayside where distance has seemed plentiful and it's been in the open air. Customs generally ask us to leave the vehicle while we check it anyway and border control are behind screens, so both are low risk.

It seems much more likely that implementing measures to distance and control car passengers are taking more workers than usual and those workers come from the ones monitoring bike boarding (directing traffic, telling people to tie the damn bikes or just tying ones people fail to do) and cyclists are seen as acceptable collateral damage. Again, I think this is because cyclists are too damn nice and there's always some who seem willing to defend any anti-cycling action, as we can see above.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mjr
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby mjr » 7 Jul 2020, 8:39pm

st599_uk wrote:Buses, trains and ferries don't have air replacement and HEPA filtering.

Most ferries have open deck areas which have very frequent air replacement, although it's somewhat salty!

HEPA filters haven't been shown to stop Coronavirus anyway:
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/03/coronavirus-can-an-air-purifier-protect-you/ wrote:Theoretically, an air purifier could have the capability to capture coronavirus, if the purifier had a particular type of HEPA filter with an efficiency of 99.95% and an ultra violet lamp to then kill coronavirus. Crucially, though, none of this has been scientifically proven yet, and, in the real world, a lot depends on factors [...]

Note especially "a particular type of HEPA filter" - the European and US standards are for 0.3 micron filtration and coronavirus is thought to be 0.1 micron, so you'd need better-than-standard filters, closer to ULPA than HEPA.

And of course, even that only matters once the air gets to the filter and much of the transmission seems to be direct person-to-person droplets (which is why we have extra interpersonal distancing) which won't ever see a filter.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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whoof
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby whoof » 7 Jul 2020, 8:53pm

mjr wrote:
st599_uk wrote:Buses, trains and ferries don't have air replacement and HEPA filtering.

Most ferries have open deck areas which have very frequent air replacement, although it's somewhat salty!

HEPA filters haven't been shown to stop Coronavirus anyway:
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/03/coronavirus-can-an-air-purifier-protect-you/ wrote:Theoretically, an air purifier could have the capability to capture coronavirus, if the purifier had a particular type of HEPA filter with an efficiency of 99.95% and an ultra violet lamp to then kill coronavirus. Crucially, though, none of this has been scientifically proven yet, and, in the real world, a lot depends on factors [...]

Note especially "a particular type of HEPA filter" - the European and US standards are for 0.3 micron filtration and coronavirus is thought to be 0.1 micron, so you'd need better-than-standard filters, closer to ULPA than HEPA.

And of course, even that only matters once the air gets to the filter and much of the transmission seems to be direct person-to-person droplets (which is why we have extra interpersonal distancing) which won't ever see a filter.

0.3 um is the standard it has to meet but many HEPA filters of this standard filter out far smaller particles. The last time I had a air validation survey done the amount of sub 0.1 um particles were very low.

robing
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby robing » 7 Jul 2020, 10:17pm

robertsurtees wrote:
MarcusT wrote:At this point I would not leave my own country. Things are still too volatile and the rules are changing everyday. 1 day things are fine, the next, there is a 14 day quarantine



I understand why you feel that way but we all have to carry out our own risk assessment. I wouldn't stray too far or go anywhere that would be difficult to get back from but I think northern Europe is pretty safe

But if there was a lockdown imposed in the country you happened to be in, how would you get back? You will be at a disadvantage on a bike. Your bike becomes a hindrance when you have to use public transport, particularly if a lot of people have to make an exodus. People in March who didn't get out in time were stranded.
Last edited by robing on 8 Jul 2020, 4:59pm, edited 1 time in total.

robertsurtees
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby robertsurtees » 8 Jul 2020, 3:57pm

robing wrote:
robertsurtees wrote:
MarcusT wrote:At this point I would not leave my own country. Things are still too volatile and the rules are changing everyday. 1 day things are fine, the next, there is a 14 day quarantine



I understand why you feel that way but we all have to carry out our own risk assessment. I wouldn't stray too far or go anywhere that would be difficult to get back from but I think northern Europe is pretty safe

But if there was a lockdown imposed in the country you happened to be in, how would you get back? You will be at a disadvantage on a bike. Your kid becomes a hindrance when you have to use public transport, particularly if a lot of people have to make an exodus. People in March who didn't get out in time were stranded.


That is all part of the risk assessment. At present, I'd be happy to take my chances in northern Europe but that could change. My plan is to take my booked trip to Hoek van Holland and I shall stay nearby. The Stena ferries continued to go twice-daily during the last travel restrictions so I'm confident.

willp01908
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby willp01908 » 8 Jul 2020, 5:49pm

We`re off next week.

Booked on DFDS Dover - Dunkirk as cyclists today with no issue. We`re hiring a van to get to the port too rather than our usual option of the train. A one way rental actually only a tenner more than the train fare.

This is a trip that we`d originally intended starting back in April and was due to take most of the year exploring Europe. We`re going to see what we can do with the time left.

A bit worried about further lockdowns, but what makes it easier is knowing we don`t have to rush back to the UK. We also have a number of "boltholes" where we could potentially hole up with friends and family in various countries.

Comparing the UK governments response to the pandemic and the resulting death toll makes me think I`d be safer elsewhere if it all kicks off again in the Autumn.

fram
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby fram » 11 Jul 2020, 8:11pm

scribes wrote:We're off to France for three weeks end of next month but only if the Bike Express goes.

28th Aug?
We're booked on that one. Based south of Inverness: very few coronavirus cases of course, so the issue for us will be the risk involved in travelling on a bus from England, if it runs. Otherwise our destination might be Shetland.

scribes
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby scribes » 12 Jul 2020, 9:25pm

Yes, fram, that's the one. According to Bike Exoress website the management will make a decision shortly as to whether bus will run or not.

fram
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby fram » 16 Jul 2020, 12:34pm

Plan B etc ...

willem jongman
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby willem jongman » 16 Jul 2020, 6:00pm

Mind you, it also depends on the willingness of European countries to accept travellers from Britain, given the high infection rates in the UK. In my part of the Netherlands we have virtually zero Convid19 infections (and never had more than a few) and we would like to keep it that way. The pictures of drunken Brits abroad ignoring all regulations do not make you guys very popular, even though I am sure the kind of people who visit this site have more sense.
I have decided not to fly for the next year or so, and to avoid any public transport if at all possible. I am restricting my cycling holiday to the north of Germany this year, and for a professional meeting in Paris in September the plan is to ride my bike to get there.

dnrc
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby dnrc » 16 Jul 2020, 8:17pm

I'm off on Sunday - all the .gov pages have travel updates and right now everywhere is good to go. Insurance including covid contraction cover is available now.

I fly into Cologne, will head for Koblenz and then spend some time pottering around the Moselle/Nurburgring/Eiffel area, will then maybe pop in to Antwerp and then up to get the ferry home at the hook.

Can't wait - will be my first break of more than 3-4 days since this time last year.




FYI you can sign up for real time travel updates on the .gov websites for countries you are planning to visit - they will email you whenever the advice changes.

Jdsk
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Re: Europe is open - who's going?

Postby Jdsk » 16 Jul 2020, 8:23pm

willem jongman wrote:The pictures of drunken Brits abroad ignoring all regulations do not make you guys very popular, even though I am sure the kind of people who visit this site have more sense.

That's understandable, and it's a national disgrace.

Thankyou for adding the rider.

Jonathan