Is Trump Mad?

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Is Trump Mad?

yes
74
63%
no
31
26%
maybe
7
6%
maybe not
3
3%
dont know
3
3%
 
Total votes: 118

Oldjohnw
Posts: 5308
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Oldjohnw » 7 Oct 2020, 8:55am

For Trump, medicine 100% funded and delivered by the State is good. For everyone else it is bad.
John

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18474
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Vorpal » 7 Oct 2020, 9:23am

Oldjohnw wrote:For Trump, medicine 100% funded and delivered by the State is good. For everyone else it is bad.

Trump is angling for health care stock market prices, not actual health care.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

reohn2
Posts: 40130
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby reohn2 » 7 Oct 2020, 9:27am

Oh Lord we are not worthy so much as to gather the crumbs that fall from your table......
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Pebble
Posts: 347
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Pebble » 7 Oct 2020, 9:43am

GranvilleThomas wrote:
Manc33 wrote:The title is a loaded question. Trump possibly isn't mad, when he's made billions in real estate. You could say he's corrupt, conniving, dishonest, sneaky, but not mad.


The thing is he isn't a successful businessman, he inherited millions from his father initially.

Most Americans think Trump is a successful businessman mind you. Until they learn about his losses.

$1.17 billion in losses between 1985 and 1994, for example.

Since 2005, Trump has made hundreds of millions of dollars from 'The Apprentice' and associated branding deals. He’s poured much of it into risky investments that have ostensibly failed, and he’s used those losses, on top of business deductions, to drive down his taxable income.

'

Indeed Trump is no politician or businessman, but he is a very successful showman come salesman. You don't get to head one of the most successful TV shows in the US for a decade without being a prime performer.

And this is the worry, he may be behind in the polls right now but he is very capable of pulling something out of the bag in the next month, I hope he looses but I wouldn't underestimate him or rule him out. He will play any trick in the book.

Vorpal
Moderator
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Location: Not there ;)

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Vorpal » 7 Oct 2020, 9:49am

Part of being a successful business person in the USA is playing all sorts of games with the books, and multiple businesses, in order to avoid paying taxes.

Having a luxurious lifestyle whilst paying $750 in taxes makes him a hero :roll:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

reohn2
Posts: 40130
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby reohn2 » 7 Oct 2020, 9:56am

Vorpal wrote:Part of being a successful business person in the USA is playing all sorts of games with the books, and multiple businesses, in order to avoid paying taxes.

Having a luxurious lifestyle whilst paying $750 in taxes makes him a hero :roll:

It doesn't just apply in the US,it's the same all over the world and most certainly applies to the UK.
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PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3850
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 7 Oct 2020, 10:01am

Vorpal wrote:Part of being a successful business person in the USA is playing all sorts of games with the books, and multiple businesses, in order to avoid paying taxes.

Having a luxurious lifestyle whilst paying $750 in taxes makes him a hero :roll:

On the first point I bow to and accept your superior knowledge of the place.

On the second, I ask why would we in the UK wish to become even more closely associated with such a socially dubious place?

But that is exactly what this awful Tory Govt. intends, I fear.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 7290
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Tangled Metal » 7 Oct 2020, 10:18am

I hope you're not naive enough to think taking part in schemes to pay as little tax as possible legally is only happening during a Tory government. Tax evasion/ avoidance whether illegal or legal has been a feature of our country as much as any other from the earliest days of taxation.

I bet you're doing it in one form or another too. It's an apolitical situation. However, taxation is political. Some want more(paid by others if course), others want less. In government it's about ideology in that you need to afford your state disbursements to society. More disbursements equals more taxation. Big state vs small state. We've always been mid way between them I believe. Both Tories and labour have kept us there despite the imagery they give at GE time.

So in what way are we becoming more like America? Tax reduction? Private sector involvement in NHS (heavily part of labour's strategy on public sector growth under Blair)? Or the way we're becoming a nation that doesn't trust experts, believe conspiracies, etc? We were already there before trump if you ask me. STEM subjects aren't understood by the majority of UK populations which imho means we as a nation collectively struggle understanding statistics and science. There's a negativity about them I think.

Personally i think America and UK have always reflected each other but America just does it all bigger and more flamboyant than reserved Brits. I guess that's why salesmen make up more of the boards of us businesses than Britain. We're a nation of bean counters on the board. USA sells it , UK doesn't.

merseymouth
Posts: 2033
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby merseymouth » 7 Oct 2020, 10:53am

Hi, Nye Bevan used to do his own tax fiddles, putting all sorts of non acceptable costs onto his farm accounts, claiming tax breaks! Telling the Inland Revenue to mind their own beeswax. He was a notorious fiddler, so much for socialist values? MM

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3850
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 7 Oct 2020, 10:56am

Tangled Metal wrote:I hope you're not naive enough to think taking part in schemes to pay as little tax as possible legally is only happening during a Tory government. Tax evasion/ avoidance whether illegal or legal has been a feature of our country as much as any other from the earliest days of taxation.

I bet you're doing it in one form or another too. It's an apolitical situation. However, taxation is political. Some want more(paid by others if course), others want less. In government it's about ideology in that you need to afford your state disbursements to society. More disbursements equals more taxation. Big state vs small state. We've always been mid way between them I believe. Both Tories and labour have kept us there despite the imagery they give at GE time.

So in what way are we becoming more like America? Tax reduction? Private sector involvement in NHS (heavily part of labour's strategy on public sector growth under Blair)? Or the way we're becoming a nation that doesn't trust experts, believe conspiracies, etc? We were already there before trump if you ask me. STEM subjects aren't understood by the majority of UK populations which imho means we as a nation collectively struggle understanding statistics and science. There's a negativity about them I think.

Personally i think America and UK have always reflected each other but America just does it all bigger and more flamboyant than reserved Brits. I guess that's why salesmen make up more of the boards of us businesses than Britain. We're a nation of bean counters on the board. USA sells it , UK doesn't.

I am naive enough to not like tax evasion by big multinationals and their shareholders, yes.

By the likes of the moral hypocrite Rees Mogg's investment undertakings. Where simple measures like putting accounts into the Cayman Islands, not available to the average grafter, result in untaxed profits on the backs of those who can afford it least.

I am personally pretty straight in such things. So definitely not too much hypocrisy but I bow to your own personal knowledge of such things!

I pay a fair bit of tax in spite of being monetarily quite (even very?) poor.

This is about an ever growing inequality in the UK. About food banks and homelessness. About POVERTY.
About the willingness of a state to offer some help to the less fortunate.
Just because one is either not driven by the acquisition of money at ANY cost or is just less able should not mean suffering big time as a consequence.

This is especially true in super wealthy societies where the gap between groups has steadily grown.
Sure It's political.
If Boots or Somerset Investments avoid tax on money made primarily in the UK then they should pay tax fairly in the UK.
Not avoid it by dint of a simple sleight of accounting hand (putting the company name overseas).

It would be easy to legislate against such fraud.
The EU had made moves towards more stringent regulation of tax havens. More transparency.
IMV it is, and was, a big reason for the big guns of dubious finance putting much money to support leave.
Banks, Martin, Dyson, Rees Mogg, Liam Fox. It is tiny fraction of a list of the greedy, unsocial and unsavory.

So you support closet tax evasion if you will. You think it just "human nature" and in some ways a worthy and understandable goal?

I take another view.
Especially if some of that wealth is acquired though taxpayer support.
Or political nepotism.
Then it verges to outright theft.

GranvilleThomas
Posts: 120
Joined: 1 Apr 2015, 9:58am
Location: Caerphilly

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby GranvilleThomas » 7 Oct 2020, 11:24am

Pebble wrote:
GranvilleThomas wrote:
Manc33 wrote:The title is a loaded question. Trump possibly isn't mad, when he's made billions in real estate. You could say he's corrupt, conniving, dishonest, sneaky, but not mad.


The thing is he isn't a successful businessman, he inherited millions from his father initially.

Most Americans think Trump is a successful businessman mind you. Until they learn about his losses.

$1.17 billion in losses between 1985 and 1994, for example.

Since 2005, Trump has made hundreds of millions of dollars from 'The Apprentice' and associated branding deals. He’s poured much of it into risky investments that have ostensibly failed, and he’s used those losses, on top of business deductions, to drive down his taxable income.

'

Indeed Trump is no politician or businessman, but he is a very successful showman come salesman. You don't get to head one of the most successful TV shows in the US for a decade without being a prime performer.

And this is the worry, he may be behind in the polls right now but he is very capable of pulling something out of the bag in the next month, I hope he looses but I wouldn't underestimate him or rule him out. He will play any trick in the book.


Yes I agree with you entirely, I just worry about what he is going to do.

Not necessarily to win the election, but to prevent one taking place in the first place.

Only time will tell!

User avatar
kylecycler
Posts: 747
Joined: 12 Aug 2013, 4:09pm
Location: Kyle, Ayrshire

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby kylecycler » 7 Oct 2020, 12:18pm

He went mad on Twitter last night - not just Trump crazy but crazy Trump crazy - he was all over the place, presumably as a result of the meds, most likely the steroids, he's on for the coronavirus.

This is where he left it - he'll not be up yet. Scroll through and you'll see what I mean. This is the President of the United States, people.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump

A doctor described the likely effect of the medication last night to Rachel Maddow:


Tangled Metal
Posts: 7290
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Tangled Metal » 7 Oct 2020, 1:39pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:I hope you're not naive enough to think taking part in schemes to pay as little tax as possible legally is only happening during a Tory government. Tax evasion/ avoidance whether illegal or legal has been a feature of our country as much as any other from the earliest days of taxation.

I bet you're doing it in one form or another too. It's an apolitical situation. However, taxation is political. Some want more(paid by others if course), others want less. In government it's about ideology in that you need to afford your state disbursements to society. More disbursements equals more taxation. Big state vs small state. We've always been mid way between them I believe. Both Tories and labour have kept us there despite the imagery they give at GE time.

So in what way are we becoming more like America? Tax reduction? Private sector involvement in NHS (heavily part of labour's strategy on public sector growth under Blair)? Or the way we're becoming a nation that doesn't trust experts, believe conspiracies, etc? We were already there before trump if you ask me. STEM subjects aren't understood by the majority of UK populations which imho means we as a nation collectively struggle understanding statistics and science. There's a negativity about them I think.

Personally i think America and UK have always reflected each other but America just does it all bigger and more flamboyant than reserved Brits. I guess that's why salesmen make up more of the boards of us businesses than Britain. We're a nation of bean counters on the board. USA sells it , UK doesn't.

I am naive enough to not like tax evasion by big multinationals and their shareholders, yes.

By the likes of the moral hypocrite Rees Mogg's investment undertakings. Where simple measures like putting accounts into the Cayman Islands, not available to the average grafter, result in untaxed profits on the backs of those who can afford it least.

I am personally pretty straight in such things. So definitely not too much hypocrisy but I bow to your own personal knowledge of such things!

I pay a fair bit of tax in spite of being monetarily quite (even very?) poor.

This is about an ever growing inequality in the UK. About food banks and homelessness. About POVERTY.
About the willingness of a state to offer some help to the less fortunate.
Just because one is either not driven by the acquisition of money at ANY cost or is just less able should not mean suffering big time as a consequence.

This is especially true in super wealthy societies where the gap between groups has steadily grown.
Sure It's political.
If Boots or Somerset Investments avoid tax on money made primarily in the UK then they should pay tax fairly in the UK.
Not avoid it by dint of a simple sleight of accounting hand (putting the company name overseas).

It would be easy to legislate against such fraud.
The EU had made moves towards more stringent regulation of tax havens. More transparency.
IMV it is, and was, a big reason for the big guns of dubious finance putting much money to support leave.
Banks, Martin, Dyson, Rees Mogg, Liam Fox. It is tiny fraction of a list of the greedy, unsocial and unsavory.

So you support closet tax evasion if you will. You think it just "human nature" and in some ways a worthy and understandable goal?

I take another view.
Especially if some of that wealth is acquired though taxpayer support.
Or political nepotism.
Then it verges to outright theft.

I was referring to your Tory comment not about whether it's bad. I agree tax evasion is wrong but my point that you spectacularly missed was that it's a problem that's older even than our current nation. Avoiding and evading tax is as old as taxation itself and no matter what tax regime any state sets up it'll continue happening.

I don't support tax evasion or avoidance and have never said that I do. Just as I do not think you are clear from this yourself. Not knowing your financial arrangements but even legal financial instruments as ISAs, pensions are tax avoidance measures which we all take advantage of. If you've ever had a pay rise that put you just over a taxation threshold it's likely you've thought of paying more each year into your pension to lower your tax bill.

The sentiments behind avoidance are close to those behind evasion don't you think?

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3850
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 7 Oct 2020, 2:08pm

^^
Tangled.
Well I don't think I spectacularly missed your open acceptance of the kind of avarice displayed by "The Apprentice" and other simple greed and acquisition type propaganda.


That's how it sounded to me.
"We all do it, so that makes Corporate theft alright".
It is the norm in your view, that is how I read it.


It maybe the norm but in my view it is an area that desperately needs legislative overhaul.

The Tories are avowed promotors of this free finance stuff.
Ten years of austerity, not for them as a group as the widening gulf in society reflects all too clearly, but actually for the poorly paid.
And the less fortunate who actually pay more tax proportionally. 20% VAT on a great deal of small stuff that bigger business avoids, for example.

Their policy has spectacularly failed in that as a Nation the balance of payments was worse than that that they inherited and so heavily criticised.
And I mean pre Covid.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 7290
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Is Trump Mad?

Postby Tangled Metal » 7 Oct 2020, 2:54pm

Sorry. Thought we were talking about taxation and avoidance/evasion. I must have missed the point where I started sleep typing into social matters. The conversation was about trump and tax evasion or avoidance and your shoehorning Tory bashing into that. I made the point that it's human nature and been in existence as long as taxation has which in case you hadn't realised longer than the Tory party has been in existence. Can't blame human's nature to avoid paying out if they can on the Tories.

Do you know anyone who has paid more tax than they were asked for under the rules? It is actually possible to arrange that without gaining any benefit for yourself. Being a social guy I bet you're going to tell me you have negotiated overpayment with HMRC.

Personally I've got ISAs and pension so am guilty of tax avoidance. I am also guilty of benefits avoidance. I've decided a few times to not claim benefits because I was managing without. Tax credits a few times and unemployment benefits a few times. A right winger practising what he preaches perhaps???

As to the rest of your argument not tax related I'm simply not going to encourage that diatribe you like to spit out.