Flu 'jab'

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GranvilleThomas
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby GranvilleThomas » 8 Oct 2020, 11:02am

The fact is that the flu vaccine is not particularly effective as they have to 'guess' in advance what strain of flu is going to be prevalent next 'flu season'.

Across all age groups including children, the flu vaccine only prevented 15-50% of flu cases between 2015 - 2020 for example and these figures are from research by Public Health England on the effectiveness of flu vaccines.

The medical profession are aware of this and my GP told me that even though the figures for effectiveness do not look very good, and even if only a small number of people who actually get any benefit from the jab, it still reduces the strain put on the NHS bed wise.

The fact still stands though - the flu vaccine is not very effective, mainly because by their very nature, a virus is constantly changing/mutating.

Jdsk
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby Jdsk » 8 Oct 2020, 11:15am

GranvilleThomas wrote:The fact still stands though - the flu vaccine is not very effective, mainly because by their very nature, a virus is constantly changing/mutating.

Mutation is a problem, and especially for seasonal flu as you say. But I wouldn't generalise: medical science cracked it for many other viral diseases, as listed above. We'll see how it pans out for COVID-19.

Jonathan

Jdsk
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby Jdsk » 8 Oct 2020, 11:21am

ANTONISH wrote:The great fear of my youth was polio - I had the polio vaccine and I believe the vaccine eradicated polio in this country.
The "antivaxxers" will argue that polio was eliminated by some other mechanism...

It's always wise to consider background improvements in health as well as specific interventions. But for epidemic polio in rich countries such as the UK it's hard to attribute the wonderful liberation to anything other than immunisation.

Jonathan

Jdsk
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby Jdsk » 8 Oct 2020, 11:22am

ANTONISH wrote:The "antivaxxers" will argue that polio was eliminated by some other mechanism - I seriously believe that many of these people are just trolls in much the same category as those that inhabit suicide websites.

Of course it depends on the definition of "troll", but I think that many really believe it and aren't doing it only to provoke reactions.

Jonathan

GranvilleThomas
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby GranvilleThomas » 8 Oct 2020, 12:57pm

Jdsk wrote:
GranvilleThomas wrote:The fact still stands though - the flu vaccine is not very effective, mainly because by their very nature, a virus is constantly changing/mutating.

Mutation is a problem, and especially for seasonal flu as you say. But I wouldn't generalise: medical science cracked it for many other viral diseases, as listed above. We'll see how it pans out for COVID-19.

Jonathan


Oh yes indeed you are correct about COVID-19, as mRNA vaccines are being developed which work in a totally different way to the annual flu jab and may well be more than the 15 to 50% effective that the flu jab is.

Let us hope so! :)

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simonineaston
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby simonineaston » 8 Oct 2020, 1:24pm

The fact still stands though - the flu vaccine is not very effective, mainly because by their very nature, a virus is constantly changing/mutating.
That's the conclusion I came to. I also concluded that since there was very little risk to me as an individual, I might as well have it, since it represents, as it were, a small net gain for my overall well-being.
byyeee,
SiE

GranvilleThomas
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby GranvilleThomas » 8 Oct 2020, 1:35pm

simonineaston wrote:
The fact still stands though - the flu vaccine is not very effective, mainly because by their very nature, a virus is constantly changing/mutating.
That's the conclusion I came to. I also concluded that since there was very little risk to me as an individual, I might as well have it, since it represents, as it were, a small net gain for my overall well-being.


Yes logic would dictate that you are correct tbh, I am not completely against having the flu jab, it just seems that every year I seem to put it off until its too late!

You know what they say about men's reluctance to visit the doctor, well that's me :)

I had the flu once, many years ago and It put me in bed for a week and I was off work for 3 weeks, so not a happy experience.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby The utility cyclist » 8 Oct 2020, 1:55pm

Using hate speech calling people 'anti vaxxer' is not just insulting but typically ignorant from narrow minded people, totally failing to grasp that people want healthy people, but not at the expense of other far wider reaching ailments that has shown to have a bigger detriment on populations and at great personal costs as well as the economic costs to societies that in certain cases the money would be better spent elsewhere as a prevention as opposed to cure (typical Western medicine thinking!)

Not once have I said I'm against ALL vaccinations, so making up stuff that hasn't been said comes up all the time, again, narrow minded thinking.
As for comparing flu to polio and smallpox :lol: , eradication of smallpox was relatively easy due to several factors that aren't apparent with influenza, polio is still around mostly BECAUSE OF THE VACCINE!
For the uninitiated the trivalent Polio vaccine brings about Polio, yes, outbreaks are caused by one of the vaccine types! Mark pallansch of CDC a partner with WHO admits (By using mOPV2), "We have now created more new emergences of the virus than we have stopped,"

And be honest, massive improvements in hygiene/improvements in sanitation, clean running water etc have been by far the biggest reason for reductions in viruses, additionally better health overall, hence washing hands is the singularly biggest thing you can do to stop the spread of influenza and suchlike as well as some basic bits of common sense which people should have been doing since year dot.

And as an aside, the Polio vaccine doesn't contain aluminium as an adjuvant.

Constant immunisations and testing is not the solution to lower the effects of influenza/viruses and the last half a century and more has proven this to be true.

Phileas
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby Phileas » 8 Oct 2020, 3:02pm

The utility cyclist wrote:..hence washing hands is the singularly biggest thing you can do to stop the spread of influenza and suchlike...


Except that flu and suchlike are thought to spread primarily by airborne means so physical distancing is, AIUI, the most effective way to control it.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm

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simonineaston
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby simonineaston » 8 Oct 2020, 3:18pm

The utility cyclist wrote:...hence washing hands is the singularly biggest thing you can do to stop the spread of influenza and suchlike...
I can't find any research that backs that up... What I can find is the assertion that it is one of the easiest ways to help * prevent the spread of infection, but that's a long chalk away from your statement. Now I'm not having a dig at you, UC - I'm simply trying to point out that the search for truth (and / or facts) is sometimes a weary & lonely trudge!
* I'll amend even the above - adding "if done properly..." !
byyeee,
SiE

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby The utility cyclist » 8 Oct 2020, 6:21pm

simonineaston wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:...hence washing hands is the singularly biggest thing you can do to stop the spread of influenza and suchlike...
I can't find any research that backs that up... What I can find is the assertion that it is one of the easiest ways to help * prevent the spread of infection, but that's a long chalk away from your statement. Now I'm not having a dig at you, UC - I'm simply trying to point out that the search for truth (and / or facts) is sometimes a weary & lonely trudge!
* I'll amend even the above - adding "if done properly..." !

Having been in the catering industry for over 30 years and was a H&S/hygiene trainer and auditor whilst a site manager I'm not wet behind the ears in these things. Washing hands is non invasive, has zero side effects, works immediately (if done properly) and for the pathogens we are talking about. it doesn't need anything other than basic soap (you need to understand the composition of the cell walls of bacteria/viruses to know why), is extremely low cost and easy to do, it also reduces the need for antibiotics which you might know has its own set of problems regards mutations/resistance to drugs for pathogens.

It clearly IS the singularly most effective way of reducing transmission ... not just my opinion but that directly from WHO and their 'Hand hygiene, Why How and When' document.
"Hands are the main pathways of germ transmission during health care. • Hand hygiene is therefore the most important measure to avoid the
transmission of harmful germs and prevent health care-associated infections."
My emphasis
Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety say the same thing, oh and CDC said the same before they changed their tune and went to the whole mask BS "the best way to prevent transmission of the novel coronavirus is washing your hands -- thoroughly -- with soap and water, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."
John Hopkins University "Proper hand hygiene is the most important thing you can do to prevent the spread of germs and to protect yourself and others from illnesses"

Phileas
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby Phileas » 8 Oct 2020, 6:42pm

@TUC
Your quote seems to be about germ transmission during health care so I’m not sure it’s relevant.
The CDC link I posted was specifically related to influenza not COVID-19
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm
People with flu can spread it to others up to about 6 feet away. Most experts think that flu viruses spread mainly by droplets made when people with flu cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs. Less often, a person might get flu by touching a surface or object that has flu virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes.

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simonineaston
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby simonineaston » 8 Oct 2020, 9:23pm

With all due respect to your far greater experience & knowledge than mine, UC, I believe you miss my point, which was simply this: it takes a great deal of effort & persistance to gain even a basic understanding of the mechanics of infectious disease. Most folk haven't got the energy.
Stay Safe, all :-)
byyeee,
SiE

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby The utility cyclist » 9 Oct 2020, 2:38pm

Phileas wrote:@TUC
Your quote seems to be about germ transmission during health care so I’m not sure it’s relevant.
The CDC link I posted was specifically related to influenza not COVID-19
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm
People with flu can spread it to others up to about 6 feet away. Most experts think that flu viruses spread mainly by droplets made when people with flu cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs. Less often, a person might get flu by touching a surface or object that has flu virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes.

So you don't think the same is for health care as it is for general populace, :? Just WOW!
Nothing like ignorance of hard facts and science and a belief in something that year on year proves to be a failure, comes at a huge expense taking away much needed funds from education of people, health and social care.

I hope all those wishing to get their jabs do so sooner rather than later, but you will test positive for 'covid' sooner rather than later.
There's nothing left to say really, I'll be advising as many as possible not to have any flu or so called covid jabs.

thirdcrank
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Re: Flu 'jab'

Postby thirdcrank » 9 Oct 2020, 2:59pm

A fortnight now since I had what must be my sixteenth annual flu jab. Still alive but controlling my feet.

Is the suggestion that I am now at greater risk of contracting Covid-19 than had I not received it / them?