SPD pedal compendium

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rogerzilla
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Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby rogerzilla » 25 Sep 2020, 8:53pm

The M737 weighs 258g (cleaned, full of grease).

That's not bad, I hear you say; carbon Dura-Ace PD-9100 pedals are 228g.

Except that M737 weight is for ONE PEDAL :lol:

rogerzilla
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Joined: 9 Jun 2008, 8:06pm

Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby rogerzilla » 24 Oct 2020, 8:58pm

I rebuilt a couple of pairs of M737s from near-scrap condition (A525s are good parts donors as they are cheap, unwanted and less likely to have been dunked).

I like them. Bigger platform, less "hot spot", while entry and exit feels much the same as a current SPD if you use SH51 cleats. There is a bit of float.

There is no lip seal to keep water and crud out, so a total grease fill is imperative. I used Castrol CL, which is no longer made, but any grade 2 marine grease would be good. You waste a fair bit as it must squeeze from between the lockbolt and the axle as you screw the "cartridge" into the body. These pedals should be serviced more regularly than later SPDs, servicing basically consisting of unscrewing the cartridge, putting more fresh grease deep in the pedal body and refitting the cartridge so this new grease is forced back through the bearings. This isn't at all necessary for current SPDs but is still often advised by old-school magazine writers.

The internals are familiar if you've overhauled any other non-Dura-Ace SPDs. The cone and cone locknut are always right-threaded.

The mid-point tension is high. I had to wind mine back so the red indicator dot was past halfway.

I replaced the old plastic lockbolts with SRP alloy ones, since the plastic was looking very grey and tired after 30 years.

Brucey
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Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby Brucey » 24 Oct 2020, 9:56pm

rogerzilla wrote:…. This isn't at all necessary for current SPDs but is still often advised by old-school magazine writers....


especially when new the bearings are usually 'bedding in' and wear debris soon turns the grease mucky-looking. If you open up a pair of SPDs (with seals) and find the grease in the bearings still clean, you can assume that changing it is a waste of time. Otherwise (and there has yet to be a 'clean grease experience' for me, and I have serviced SPDs about a hundred times now) you are definitely doing some good with clean grease.

Note that locknuts don't often work loose but it is often enough that I would advise opening the pedal to check for this even if regreasing weren't usually necessary.

The internals are familiar if you've overhauled any other non-Dura-Ace SPDs. The cone and cone locknut are always right-threaded.


in older SPDs yes the cones and locknuts are RH threaded. In newer ones (and sometimes replacement parts for older models that were not this way originally) the RH pedal has LH threading on the cone and locknut. Obviously it is good to know which you are dealing with beforehand, but this isn't always possible.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

thelawnet
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Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby thelawnet » 25 Oct 2020, 9:00am

Interesting that they don't (so far as I know) seem to fake SPD's, while SPD-SLs are faked in very large numbers and second-hand SPD-SLs should be treated with great suspicion, and all new ones assumed to be fake unless purchased from a reputable retailer.

rogerzilla
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Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby rogerzilla » 25 Oct 2020, 9:05pm

I've seen dubious clone SPD-SL cleats but not pedals. Are they different inside (e.g. bushes rather than proper bearings)? Do they try to clone the DA pedals with the three bearings and external adjustment?

thelawnet
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Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby thelawnet » 26 Oct 2020, 11:49am

rogerzilla wrote:I've seen dubious clone SPD-SL cleats but not pedals. Are they different inside (e.g. bushes rather than proper bearings)? Do they try to clone the DA pedals with the three bearings and external adjustment?


So far as I can tell they have faked SPD-SL including R540 (Tiagra), 5800, R7000, R8000

Here's a video of the R8000 pedal. It's in Malay



The fake (marked with a C in the video) is about 4 grams heavier, which does seem to be outside the likely range of variance.

In addition, the adjustment bolt on the original makes a clicking noise when it is adjusted; the fake does not (probably it is non-functional?). There are also very slight differences to the pedal appearance, and the printing on the box and instruction leaflet is less sharp.

Also the original Shimano cleats might not work with the fake pedals, according to reports.

The pedal axles do not lock securely on the fake (here 105):

https://youtu.be/6g4suCNkcts?t=207

Brucey
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Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby Brucey » 26 Oct 2020, 12:22pm

is it worth starting a separate thread for discussion of fake stuff?

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

thelawnet
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Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby thelawnet » 26 Oct 2020, 1:10pm

Brucey wrote:is it worth starting a separate thread for discussion of fake stuff?

cheers


Pedals? Or generally ?

Jdsk
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Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby Jdsk » 26 Oct 2020, 2:39pm

thelawnet wrote:
Brucey wrote:is it worth starting a separate thread for discussion of fake stuff?

Pedals? Or generally ?

Yes, please, and in general. I learnt a lot from the discussion of chains and I'm sure that there are common factors.

Jonathan

Brucey
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Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby Brucey » 22 Nov 2020, 12:52am

more on cleat compatibility, in relation to 'float'. Most current SPDs when used with current cleats give about five degrees of 'easy' float (i.e. before the jaws start to be forced further open). For some folk this isn't enough, and/or the 'easy' (five degree) float may not be free enough.

Image01952.jpg
SM-SH51 (both versions), compared with SM-SH55 and SM-SH56. Narrow 'heels' are marked 'N'. SM-SH55 also has a narrow nose. Not shown is SM-SH50; this has no shoulders (like '55) but also has a narrow nose and heel, also like '55.


the narrower heel in SM-SH51v1 allows slightly more 'easy' float in 'open' bindings. 'Easy' float is where the jaws don't have to open further to allow movement within the range, but the spring loading on the jaws still clamps the cleat lengthwise and adds a small amount of drag to the float.

Image01953.jpg
SM-SH51 v1 in a current 'open' type binding


SM-SH51v2 and SM-SH56 can be modified to give a narrower toe and heel, and thus a greater amount of 'easy' float. If the cleat is also shortened slightly (at the ends, where it bears against the jaws) the float is in no way restricted by the jaw springs and becomes completely 'free' float instead.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Brucey
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Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby Brucey » 22 Nov 2020, 9:36pm

Shimano's US site has this page about SPDs on it

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/information/news/shimano-spd-and-cleat-technology.html

where it says

….In a testament to how good that original SPD design was, it has not changed since 1990. SPD pedals have seen many refinements over the years, but the cleat design and interface are the same now as they were back then....


which is not quite accurate (if it were, there would be no problem running older cleats in newer pedals or indeed newer cleats in older pedals). It also links to this page

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/information/news/tune-up-guide---mtb--touchpoints.html

where it says

…..Shimano was the first to roll out the SPD system in 1987....


so they can't make up their minds when they launched SPD (I think they were closer the first time).

This page

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/technologies/component/details/spd.html

summarises the range of SPD products (including shoes) currently available.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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The utility cyclist
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Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby The utility cyclist » 23 Nov 2020, 1:04am

I've been using various non system cleats with Shimano SPD for years.
Wellgo, VP and ETC , all subtly different to Shimano cleats but work just fine.
The pedals are pd-737 and 515s, the former were used the latter new.
Whilst the Shimano cleats aren't a huge amount i came into (a decade and more ago) some multiple lots of cleats plus a job lot of new non Shimano pedals with cleats and attached pedals to bike & kept the cleats.

Brucey
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Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby Brucey » 23 Nov 2020, 12:16pm

I've not mentioned 'other' SPD-esque cleats much before now. Some are pretty faithful copies of the shimano cleats (not always copies of the same model...) and others are not.

When using mismatched cleats in non-shimano pedals, it can work fine, but it can also throw up all kinds of problems; too numerous to mention. When using non-shimano cleats in shimano pedals the following outcomes are possible;

a) cleats don't work at all
b) cleats go in but won't come out properly
c) cleats seem to work when new but then won't release cleanly when worn
d) cleats have wrong profile so go in the pedal but the interface won't work properly (much as happens if you use SM-SH50, 55 models in SPD pedals with 'open' bindings)
e) cleats go in and seem to work OK but give the wrong amount of float.

The last point is well worth noting; some folk need a certain amount of float and suffer enormously if they don't have it. A common thing that happens is that folk buy an old set of SPDs 'to try the system out' , believe the whitewash that some folk (including shimano) perpetrate, i.e. that the cleat interface is 'the same' or 'it doesn't matter' and find that they don't get on with the pedals at all. Lack of float is one of the commonest objections, and one of the most common outcomes too, especially with older pedals.

I have known folk try SPD out this way and then -for lack of knowledge and/or the correct cleats- resort to spending a small fortune on pedals and cleats which offer more float but are otherwise not wildly different. Armed with a little knowledge this can be avoided.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

zenitb
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Old Pedals with New Cleats ?

Postby zenitb » 24 Nov 2020, 8:41pm

I was comparing the old PD-M323 with its replacement the new PD-M324

As Brucey has described the front claw and the rear latch are different on the two generations of SPD

1st generation (V1)
M323ClawAndLatch.JPG
PD-M323 Claw and Latch
2nd generation (V2)
M324ClawAndLatch.JPG
PD-M324 Claw and Latch
The V1 claw is straighter and the v1 latch is a compound shape with two curves joined by a flat section
The V2 claw and latch are both more circular

Now you would have thought that using new V2 cleats with your old V1 pedals would restrict the float, since on first consideration you would assume they were not really compatible. I recently got my old PD-M323s back on the road though and in practice they are fine with new cleats and have plenty of float .. certainly enough for me. So I thought I would lab-test this with a static test

Old and New Cleats Compared.JPG
PD-M324 (top) PD-M323 (bottom)

Really not much practical difference in float, at least for "heel in". The older pedal clearly allows less movement at the latch, however the flatter shape of the claw appears to compensate for this, at least to an extent. Obviously this could be a lot more scientific but when I lined up the photos as shown the "zero effort" deflection for "heel in" looked pretty similar on both. (The SM-SH51 cleats were brand new out of the bag, the pedals less new of course :-))
Thoughts appreciated as always ...

rogerzilla
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Re: SPD pedal compendium

Postby rogerzilla » 24 Nov 2020, 10:09pm

New SH51 cleats work fine with original M737 pedals, giving a bit of float and feeling much the same as a new M540.

SH51 cleats in almost-original M525 pedals give zero float (the rear latching plate has a V-shaped cutout, not the usual rounded one).