al_yrpal wrote:Its all coming out now. The guy heading the Witch Hunt for 8 months never even spoke to Priti...doh! And the ninnys didnt like working weekends? Obviously 2 sides to this debacle.
Al
What have you read that casts doubt on the outcome of the Enquiry please?
Multiple newspaper reports saying the same things.
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
al_yrpal wrote:Its all coming out now. The guy heading the Witch Hunt for 8 months never even spoke to Priti...doh! And the ninnys didnt like working weekends? Obviously 2 sides to this debacle.
Al
What have you read that casts doubt on the outcome of the Enquiry please?
Multiple newspaper reports saying the same things.
Al
Even Patel herself had admitted the behaviour and has (sort of) apologised. She did NOT declare "I never did it" but rather that she "was sorry if people were upset by it [her behaviour]".
I have no idea if the guy running the inquiry talked to Patel or not but wonder how that would have helped. The issue came down to whether or not she was bullying. How many bullies admit their behaviour when questioned (as most don't see anything wrong with their behaviour). As Jonathan posted earlier in the thread any "unintentional" is totally irrelevant.
If the Civil Service were un-cooperative then that is a totally separate issue and certainly does not justify bullying (and reflects badly on her capabilities as one crucial skill for somebody in her role is to get on with others and bring them on-side, screaming, shouting and swearing not usually effective in that regard).
al_yrpal wrote:Sergeant Majors take note and be very afraid of the ninnys charter
Al
Can you explain what this means?
As Al's failed to clarify let me interpret it for you. In Al’s world some people are better than others, let’s call them sergeant majors. Also in Al’s world some people are weak and foolish, let’s call them ninnies. SM trump ninnies so therefore treating other people without consideration and respect is totally acceptable. Only my opinion of course but don’t be like Al as most of us will recall at school the bullies were usually outed as the weak and feeble ones.
Well having managed all sorts in my career, as well as 6 years experience in the Civil Service, and then as a manager company director and business owner I believe my personal experience is a little wider than managing a herd of sheep. That probably colours my judgement. Sir Humphrey was obviously highly irritated at being shouted at and having his weekends disrupted. Patel is obviously bombastic with a robust management style. Whether thats in the public interest is in the hands of the PM and he made HIS decision.
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Where you have confused me is over whether you think she has been the victim of injustice (a witch hunt) or if your vast experience tells you that swearing etc at subordinates is good practice.
As Al's failed to clarify let me interpret it for you. In Al’s world some people are better than others, let’s call them sergeant majors. Also in Al’s world some people are weak and foolish, let’s call them ninnies. SM trump ninnies so therefore treating other people without consideration and respect is totally acceptable. Only my opinion of course but don’t be like Al as most of us will recall at school the bullies were usually outed as the weak and feeble ones.
Well having managed all sorts in my career, as well as 6 years experience in the Civil Service, and then as a manager company director and business owner I believe my personal experience is a little wider than managing a herd of sheep. That probably colours my judgement. Sir Humphrey was obviously highly irritated at being shouted at and having his weekends disrupted. Patel is obviously bombastic with a robust management style. Whether thats in the public interest is in the hands of the PM and he made HIS decision.
Al
Shouting at, swearing at and bullying people below you the hierarchy is NOT "bombastic with a robust management style". Management wise at best it shows total incapability to manage and should never be tolerated.
Given she has admitted to her behaviour (she has apologies if it upset people), you behave like that to your GP Reception Staff and you would quite rightly be told to find another GP Practice. Behave like that to a supermarket cashier and I'd expect their security to throw you out of the store, ...
Where you have confused me is over whether you think she has been the victim of injustice (a witch hunt) or if your vast experience tells you that swearing etc at subordinates is good practice.
I think that sort of behaviour should be avoided because its wrong and counterproductive. Yes, I think there is now obviously a politically inspired witch hunt like so many opposition campaigns. In our present situation they are the last thing needed.
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Where you have confused me is over whether you think she has been the victim of injustice (a witch hunt) or if your vast experience tells you that swearing etc at subordinates is good practice.
I think that sort of behaviour should be avoided because its wrong and counterproductive. Yes, I think there is now obviously a politically inspired witch hunt like so many opposition campaigns. In our present situation they are the last thing needed.
Al
I think "In our present situation the last thing needed" is incapable politicians in senior roles who have no idea about management and cannot work with their staff (the same staff who have successfully worked with many different proceeding politicians of differing persuasions).
Far better she is quickly replaced than all the messages Johnson is sending (to the Civil Service, to overseas politicians watching his "standards" following "we're going to break international law", etc.)
al_yrpal wrote:Its all coming out now. The guy heading the Witch Hunt for 8 months never even spoke to Priti...doh! And the ninnys didnt like working weekends? Obviously 2 sides to this debacle.
Al
Complete c**p, Al. It is absolute nonsense that Home Office Civil Servants didn't work weekends. It is true that the department has been quite disfunctional for many years but I fail to see how that justifies bullying.
al_yrpal wrote:Well having managed all sorts in my career, as well as 6 years experience in the Civil Service, and then as a manager company director and business owner I believe my personal experience is a little wider than managing a herd of sheep. That probably colours my judgement. Sir Humphrey was obviously highly irritated at being shouted at and having his weekends disrupted. Patel is obviously bombastic with a robust management style. Whether thats in the public interest is in the hands of the PM and he made HIS decision.
Al
Thanks Al for succinctly making my point.
Just be grateful you never employed me and told me I was f******g useless.
ps when you’ve a minute can you explain how managing an agricultural business is different to other businesses? Just asking for a friend
Last edited by Paulatic on 22 Nov 2020, 12:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life
An unpublished NewsBiscuit that I felt was more of a summary of the situation than a "parody"
http://newsbiscuit.com/forum/topic.php?id=150914 wrote:Home Office to free all the criminals who ‘didn’t mean it’ Home Secretary Priti Patel has explained the latest concept in criminal justice, ‘Unintentionality’. According to the theory a person who did something bad but ‘didn’t mean any harm’ should be forgiven, especially if they’re a member of Cabinet.
Ever keen to set an example, Patel has been trying the concept out on her own civil servants. Some have left the Home Office crying grateful tears and at least one received a £25k payout, presumably for ‘services to justice research’ or something like that.
Unintentionality is a doctrine which can be applied to many forms of bad behaviour. Maybe you caught a communicable disease but instead of quarantine, you went for a nice long drive? Perhaps you spaffed £12 billion on a useless IT system without following procurement law? Bullied your staff? Made a pact with the Devil? Dismembered an old woman outside Wetherspoon’s? These are all acceptable as long as you meant well and the Prime Minister is an old friend. Maybe that old woman wanted to be dismembered? Perhaps your staff appreciate being taught the meaning of high standards? The Devil gets a bad press but so did Cliff Richard, and he turned out to be innocent. If that doesn’t prove that Priti Patel isn’t a bully, what does?
Obviously Al thinks it's ok to commission an independent report, keep key witnesses away, suppress the report for many months, try to persuade the ,author to modify his conclusions then disregard it anyway.
Al: running a business is not the same as running a country.
al_yrpal wrote:Its all coming out now. The guy heading the Witch Hunt for 8 months never even spoke to Priti...doh! And the ninnys didnt like working weekends? Obviously 2 sides to this debacle.
Al
Complete c**p, Al. It is absolute nonsense that Home Office Civil Servants didn't work weekends. It is true that the department has been quite disfunctional for many years but I fail to see how that justifies bullying.
Its been widely reported that SOME Home Office staff wouldnt and were unsupporting to the Minister. Was it a case of a male Senior Civil Servant, a product of Cambridge, Harvard and Dulwich College objected to being instructed to perform by a stroppy little Asian woman, a product of a minor University? Its possible... The First Division is practically an impenetrable closed old boys club which sticks together as you probably know. Sir Humphrey lives... Barbara Castle got things done though!
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
al_yrpal wrote:Its been widely reported that SOME Home Office staff wouldnt and were unsupporting to the Minister. Was it a case of a male Senior Civil Servant, a product of Cambridge, Harvard and Dulwich College objected to being instructed to perform by a stroppy little Asian woman, a product of a minor University? Its possible... The First Division is practically an impenetrable closed old boys club which sticks together as you probably know. Sir Humphrey lives... Barbara Castle got things done though!
Al
Get your name down to replace Sir Alex Allan as Johson's advisor on the Ministerial Code. You seem to be just the type he goes for. (As an advisor, of course, not in the Biblical sense.)
There was found to be a consistent pattern of behaviour, about which she had been told. That's pretty much it (see what I did there), unless your boss decides to disregard - actually more than disregard, the findings of a detailed enquiry, whereupon you can say sorry and all's well.
Legal and Whitehall sources have revealed that Sir Alex Allan sought to interview the former top Home Office civil servant Sir Philip Rutnam about his dealings with Patel, but was blocked by government officials.
