Did you clap this time round - or last time?

[Ride-sleep-repeat]

No and no.
I couldn't post what my wife(a Senior Sister Respiratory/now Covid) said about it as the Mods would delete it!
Seeing Johnson and indeed all the Tory party doing it was sickening

[sjs]

The first time round I didn’t want to be the only person in the street not clapping but this time I didn’t want to be the only person who was clapping.

First time round we did it a few times, and in our street it did seem quite heartfelt. But the point someone made that many of the clappers will have voted for the party that abolished nurse training bursaries, froze their pay while being very generous to themselves, and so on, is very true, in our constituency as much as anywhere (until recently home of the lovely Peter Lilley).
Now, not so much.

[Ben@Forest]

One thing that has troubled me about it is when you see all those people outside clapping all I can think is that a significant proportion of those clappers only recently voted for a party with a long term track record of NHS cuts, resource cuts, pay freeze/cuts, etc. for the very group they are now clapping for.....

And of course a significant proportion of people who work in the NHS voted Conservative. My wife is a nurse and over the past few years very few NHS employees I've met have expressed support for Corbyn/Labour. It was quite the reverse - mainly a ' I'm not voting for that pillock Corbyn' type comment. Someone we know was highly aggrieved by Labour's attitude to anti-semitism.

In fact relying on a base of voters, whether Scottish, Welsh, public sector workers or healthcare workers because they'll 'always turn out for us' has been Labour's downfall ever since 2010.

[francovendee]

It all seems a bit contrived now. The hospital workers know clearly by now how grateful the country is for their heroic efforts.

Boris could show how appreciative the country is by giving them all a big bonus, tax free and not proportional to salary.

I know you don't go into the medical profession just for the money but I'm sure it would be welcomed.

[KTHSullivan]

No

[Graham]

I have just been viewing some short interviews with NHS staff on the medical front line. - pleading for people to help them, by avoiding contact risks.
It brings tears to my eyes to think of what they are doing/risking for the wellbeing of others.

Among the many notable Radio 4 programs recently, I remember one learned person observing that ( in general ) the monetary rewards in our society appear to be inversely proportional to the benefit of that persons work to others.

One can only hope that this Covid life/imminent-death struggle will have a tangible effect on how society values the things that are really important.

[Postboxer]

Neither then nor now.

One thing that has troubled me about it is when you see all those people outside clapping all I can think is that a significant proportion of those clappers only recently voted for a party with a long term track record of NHS cuts, resource cuts, pay freeze/cuts, etc. for the very group they are now clapping for. I'd feel far happier giving those being recognised and clapped a pay rise or maybe some PPE to protect them in their work helping us, or enough staff to do the job (without long term ludicrous hours, fatigue), etc. Then when politicians who make those pay cuts, resource restrictions and cuts, etc. start clapping all I can see is hypocrisy.

Ian

This. Many people who voted for a party who for many years had a health secretary who had written a book on how to dismantle the NHS, can't then express gratitude for it's existence.
Plus now there's the added hypocrisy of clapping whilst knowing they've been bending or downright ignoring the rules for the last 10 months, going out to clap doesn't make it ok.

So no and no.

[Oldjohnw]

Johnson doesn't want to save the NHS. He wants to dismantle it and flog it off.

He just wants the NHS to manage during this pandemic. Beyond that I very much doubt his intentions, nor those of most of his cabinet.

[gbnz]

No. Surely it's about time that a state funded monopoly was closed down?

[Oldjohnw]

No. Surely it's about time that a state funded monopoly was closed down?

Absolutely. Private armies and police forces next. Local chieftains. Courts who make it all up. Down with state funded monopolies.

[pliptrot]

gbnz,

it is difficult to understand your semi-literate post, but one thing is clear: you have confused the functions of a public service with a business. It's OK - successive Governments for nearly half a century have done the same. If you think of the NHS as a monopoly provider - and use that term in the pejorative- then consider that the opposite to this is the American health system, which is killing a much higher rate of the population than the NHS (your unfortunate phraseology). The NHS has been consistently underfunded for decades. Despite this the service offered is incredibly good. There are private health providers in The UK, but they shy away from any of the difficult stuff that the NHS excels at. By most measures the NHS offers the best health service anywhere, and at a cost effectiveness every other health care provider can only marvel at. To malign the NHS in the way you have is repugnant. Of course, there are structural problems and issues to be found. The largest employer in Europe is so complex that this is inevitable.

As mentioned above, those who actually do anything are under rewarded, and in this thread that means those some have been clapping for. This is a symptom of the covert biases which exist across all sectors in all societies across the globe. Much of these have to do with the fact that those " at the coal face" do not determine their own rewards, which are in fact determined by their superiors (sic), who -not entirely incidentally- also set their own rewards. That is not a stick with which to beat the NHS.

[Pebble]

are nhs doctors and nurses poorly rewarded ?

it would appear that before overtime a nurse with a bit of experience will be on 33-35K (about 45% higher than average uk income) and doctors about treble that
https://www.nurses.co.uk/nursing/blog/a ... k-in-2020/
how much do you think they should be paid ?

[millimole]

are nhs doctors and nurses poorly rewarded ?

Leaving aside my pet peeve the use of 'doctors & nurses' as shorthand for the huge range of people needed to run a modern health service...

No - as a retired NHS professional I do not believe that there are many poorly paid jobs in the NHS.
The professional grades (above band 5) are fairly recompensed, and the very senior grades (8 & 9)are approaching generous.
I feel the unskilled band 1&2 pay rates are far too low given the importance of many of these jobs.

Of course, much of this is being perpetually eroded by the government policy of pay freezes in the face of inflation.

The idea of badly paid nurses in need of 'charity' perhaps is a hangover from the days of pre-NHS when some nurses were little more than skivvies living in dingy nurses homes.
We've come a very long way since then.

[Syd]

are nhs doctors and nurses poorly rewarded ?

Leaving aside my pet peeve the use of 'doctors & nurses' as shorthand for the huge range of people needed to run a modern health service...

No - as a retired NHS professional I do not believe that there are many poorly paid jobs in the NHS.
The professional grades (above band 5) are fairly recompensed, and the very senior grades (8 & 9)are approaching generous.
I feel the unskilled band 1&2 pay rates are far too low given the importance of many of these jobs.

Of course, much of this is being perpetually eroded by the government policy of pay freezes in the face of inflation.

The idea of badly paid nurses in need of 'charity' perhaps is a hangover from the days of pre-NHS when some nurses were little more than skivvies living in dingy nurses homes.
We've come a very long way since then.

^^^ This.

Mrs Syd and I are both NHS professionals and our combined income allegedly placed us in the ‘technical middle class’ category in a survey ran a couple of years ago. We are certainly not poorly rewarded.

AfC pay scales are freely available online.

E.g. https://www.nhsemployers.org/-/media/Em ... points.pdf

Note: These are for England. Scotland sits 1% higher due to a difference in approach to to 1% rise around 5 or 6 years ago.

My employer has very very few B1 staff and the lowest in my department is B3.

There remain some rolls, notably within portering, domestics and sterile services staff, where pay grades are lower than I believe they should be. The role these individuals do is essential to the safe running of a hospital.

[Postboxer]

Also there seems little point comparing their wages to the national average, they need to be compared against people with similar levels of qualifications and training, then also take into account the difficulty, stress levels, shift patterns, health risks, ongoing training, annual assessments, insurance costs and culpability of working in the NHS versus other professions.