Did you clap this time round - or last time?

[Cowsham]

From the beginning I thought it was cringeworthy and akin to something David Brent would think up.

Same here -- but didn't clap cos who would hear it up where I live except my cats and they wouldn't flinch since they already think I'm mad.

[Jdsk]

it would appear that before overtime a nurse with a bit of experience will be on 33-35K (about 45% higher than average uk income)...

That doesn't sound accurate to me.

It's probably best to use medians because of the skewed distribution, and to take into account the small number of nurses in senior organisational rôles who are paid much more (and medians are more resistant to this), especially after the enormous pressure a few years ago to reclassify these as "nursing" rather than "management".

The BBC's analysis then gives:


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52312038

... nothing like 45%.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

No - as a retired NHS professional I do not believe that there are many poorly paid jobs in the NHS.

Caution's needed on this one as well. Many of the lowest paid jobs have been outsourced... so "in the NHS" needs some careful definition.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Also there seems little point comparing their wages to the national average, they need to be compared against people with similar levels of qualifications and training, then also take into account the difficulty, stress levels, shift patterns, health risks, ongoing training, annual assessments, insurance costs and culpability of working in the NHS versus other professions.

Spot on (with the single exception that indemnity insurance is paid by the NHS employer).

Jonathan

PS: The overwhelming problem with employment of nurses in NHS organisations in the UK is retention, not recruitment. And IIRC the two biggest reasons for leaving are poor working conditions and lack of career progression.

[Syd]

No - as a retired NHS professional I do not believe that there are many poorly paid jobs in the NHS.

Caution's needed on this one as well. Many of the lowest paid jobs have been outsourced... so "in the NHS" needs some careful definition.

Jonathan

Not in my board.

[Syd]

Also there seems little point comparing their wages to the national average, they need to be compared against people with similar levels of qualifications and training, then also take into account the difficulty, stress levels, shift patterns, health risks, ongoing training, annual assessments, insurance costs and culpability of working in the NHS versus other professions.

Superannuation, sickness payments, annual leave allowance, job security etc etc are also factors that need to be considered.

[Jdsk]

No - as a retired NHS professional I do not believe that there are many poorly paid jobs in the NHS.

Caution's needed on this one as well. Many of the lowest paid jobs have been outsourced... so "in the NHS" needs some careful definition.

Not in my board.

Thanks for the reminder that it varies. And it is worth noting that "the NHS" isn't an employer... there are different NHSs in different countries and in England each "Trust" and some other organisations are separate legal entities. National pay scales are widely used but are not universal.

Jonathan

[Syd]

Caution's needed on this one as well. Many of the lowest paid jobs have been outsourced... so "in the NHS" needs some careful definition.

Not in my board.

Thanks for the reminder that it varies. And it is worth noting that "the NHS" isn't an employer... there are different NHSs in different countries and in England each "Trust" and some other organisations are separate legal entities. National pay scales are widely used but are not universal.

Jonathan

Scotland is pretty much universal is having services in-house. The few exceptions are maintenance staff, electricians, joiners, plumbers etc, in PFI builds.

Those employed at transition are TUPEd over which offers some protection, though for a limited period.

In one circumstance I know of in England ( I still have contact with the staff concerned) their pay since being transferred has increased, though at the expense of reducing other benefits. Any new staff have been employed at ‘competitive rates’ but face disciplinary action if they discuss salary with others! The point on discussing salaries is also common among employers of field service engineers from third party companies.

So some positive and some negative outcomes from the change.

At present the SNP government block any such things here.

[Pebble]

it would appear that before overtime a nurse with a bit of experience will be on 33-35K (about 45% higher than average uk income)...

That doesn't sound accurate to me.

It's probably best to use medians because of the skewed distribution, and to take into account the small number of nurses in senior organisational rôles who are paid much more (and medians are more resistant to this), especially after the enormous pressure a few years ago to reclassify these as "nursing" rather than "management".

The BBC's analysis then gives:


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52312038


Jonathan

just looking at the lorry drivers pay in that table and I'm going to conclude that the whole table is possible nonsense - typical bbc brainwashing
and that is before we even get to job security /, pensions etc.

[Jdsk]

Wow... the BBC quote ONS data. And we immediately get to "possible nonsense", "brainwashing" and factors other than salary.

When you'd quoted a recruitment agency as a reliable source!

it would appear that before overtime a nurse with a bit of experience will be on 33-35K (about 45% higher than average uk income)...
https://www.nurses.co.uk/nursing/blog/a ... k-in-2020/

Jonathan

[Pebble]

Wow... the BBC quote ONS data. And we immediately get to "possible nonsense", "brainwashing" and factors other than salary.

When you'd quoted a recruitment agency as a reliable source!

it would appear that before overtime a nurse with a bit of experience will be on 33-35K (about 45% higher than average uk income)...
https://www.nurses.co.uk/nursing/blog/a ... k-in-2020/

Jonathan

the figure I gave ties in well with the figures from your table - may be the ONS data is accurate for public sector, it is certainly wildly inaccurate for the private sector. I just don't trust the BBC and that report just confirms. And yes pesions and job security are very important when considering remuneration, probably more important than salary.

[landsurfer]

My niece is a nurse. She qualified 8 years ago. 2019 she earned £38k ... 2020 she's earned a lot more due to overtime and doing some work in the private sector to support the outsourcing that Covid caused ...
How do i know .... because we discussed it over the xmas period ...

[Cowsham]

Train Drivers ! Choo choo.....or choo ching !

[Phileas]

...I just don't trust the BBC and that report just confirms...

Presumably, if the report confirms the untrustworthiness of the BBC, you have some confounding data to hand that would enlighten the rest of us?

[mumbojumbo]

Did not clap on either occasions,as feel such gestures are empty.Many who clap have probably voted for parties fixated with income tax cuts and expenditure restraints.