Anyone for Gas?

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Oldjohnw
Posts: 7764
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: South Warwickshire

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Oldjohnw »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 2:10pm Now complaints about shutting pits! You couldnt make it up!

Al

Where?
John
ossie
Posts: 1793
Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by ossie »

Vorpal wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 11:32am
As far as I am concerned, protesters should shut down the M25 every day. And other motorways, too. The convenience of someone's trip being disrupted is nothing compared to the looming disaster.
Until you have a relative stuck in that traffic who needs urgent medical care. There are a myriad of reasons why these lunatics shouldn't be blocking the M25.
Mike Sales
Posts: 7860
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Mike Sales »

ossie wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 7:30pm
Vorpal wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 11:32am
As far as I am concerned, protesters should shut down the M25 every day. And other motorways, too. The convenience of someone's trip being disrupted is nothing compared to the looming disaster.
Until you have a relative stuck in that traffic who needs urgent medical care. There are a myriad of reasons why these lunatics shouldn't be blocking the M25.
Any others of that myriad? Most of those vehicles will not have been in such a desperate hurry.
As others have said, your unfortunate relative is much more likely to have their journey disrupted by the frequent holdups caused by an excess of traffic. But that, presumably, is acceptable.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
ossie
Posts: 1793
Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by ossie »

Mike Sales wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 7:36pm
ossie wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 7:30pm
Vorpal wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 11:32am
As far as I am concerned, protesters should shut down the M25 every day. And other motorways, too. The convenience of someone's trip being disrupted is nothing compared to the looming disaster.
Until you have a relative stuck in that traffic who needs urgent medical care. There are a myriad of reasons why these lunatics shouldn't be blocking the M25.
Any others of that myriad? Most of those vehicles will not have been in such a desperate hurry.
As others have said, your unfortunate relative is much more likely to have their journey disrupted by the frequent holdups caused by an excess of traffic. But that, presumably, is acceptable.
I was referring to the tragic case of the lady who suffered a stroke, likewise the victim of the RTC that happened when these lemmings threw themselves in front of traffic. Do you know the area ? Are you aware of the disruption and congestion that occurs in every outlying town and village in the vicinity when incidents like this happen. Clearly not.
Mike Sales
Posts: 7860
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Mike Sales »

ossie wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 7:41pm

I was referring to the tragic case of the lady who suffered a stroke, likewise the victim of the RTC that happened when these lemmings threw themselves in front of traffic. Do you know the area ? Are you aware of the disruption and congestion that occurs in every outlying town and village in the vicinity when incidents like this happen. Clearly not.
I have only once been unfortunate enough to travel the M25. There were many holdups, and I have read that this is often the case. With your local knowledge can you tell me this is not so?
I believe that traffic jams happen often, and began as soon as the motorway was opened.and this is one of the difficulties that trying to outbuild traffic growth fails to solve. There are other problems. the traffic generated by the building has to leave the Motorway and makes congestion worse in the surrounding area.
Was the accident caused by "the lemmings"? Perhaps you could give us a link.
RTCs are a normal consequence of motor vehicle use. I do not mean to minimise their cosequences, but to point out that the way we move around the roads inevitably causes many deaths.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
ossie
Posts: 1793
Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by ossie »

Here is a link to the accident.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... -motorway/

Here's a link to the lady paralysed after a stroke and the resulting delays

https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/ ... ital-trip/

I hate the M25 but unfortunately it serves a purpose in moving people and goods around and keeping the same traffic out of neighbouring towns and villages. It's hardly an ideal situation having an orbital six lane motorway but the protests aren't even about that.

I fully agree with the right to protest but in Vorpals post there's a massive oxymoron / paradox..someone will without doubt put me right on the exact term.

As far as I am concerned, protesters should shut down the M25 every day. And other motorways, too.

But I'd really rather we did this in a sensible way.

Please someone tell me how these actions are 'sensible'. How do you shut down a motorway in a sensible way ?
Mike Sales
Posts: 7860
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Mike Sales »

I note you do not claim that these roads, the M25 and the roads that feed traffic to and from it it, are free of traffic holdups except when there are protests. This would not be credible.
The journalist/drivers are happy to attribute blame, but neither can they claim that there are no RTCs or holdups on days without protests.
The fact is that this ring road was full as soon as it was built, and has only made these problems worse, not better. It does not keep traffic out of the surrounding area, this traffic is on its way to and from the M25.
The phenomenon of induced traffic is well understood, but the politics makes it difficult to admit.
The SE of England is a hell of traffic and building more and more roads has only encouraged more and more traffic, with the attendant problems of incidents and holdups.
To blame what is are everyday events on the protestors is disingenuous.
Encoraging more traffic by building more roads is not sustainable. We have been doing that for a hundred years but the problems have only got worse.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Stevek76
Posts: 2084
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Stevek76 »

Oh dear, telegraph reporting & headlines.

Some random witness blamed it on the protestors

"Surrey Police have said the investigation into the collision is ongoing, adding: "It is too early in the investigation to know if these two incidents were linked.""

Regardless of whether or not the protestors were the cause of that particular standstill, the fault lies with the driver(s) of one or more of the cars involved. At least one person was following the car in front too closely and/or paying insufficient attention. Standstills can form for a whole number of reasons and, on the M25, are a daily occurence anyway. A browse through @surreyroadcops twitter feed from yesterday after provides a fairly good idea of why these collisions happen.

As for the stroke victim, even if we take a caller into LBC to third rate outrage merchant/shock jockey Andrew Pierce as a reliable witness, choosing to drive an emergency case to hospital, which apparently was a considerable distance away, yourself rather than use an ambulance with those handy blue lights is a very poor decision.

As it is, without independent verification, I think it's just been fabricated. The details just don't stack up, he claims he was delayed for 6 hrs, yet the protest was in place for only 4, anyone far enough back would be diverted off the previous junction and it's perfectly feasible for medical assistance to have been provided during that time period if he was really stuck in that front part of the queue and called 999.
Last edited by Stevek76 on 21 Sep 2021, 8:49pm, edited 1 time in total.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
ossie
Posts: 1793
Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by ossie »

Stevek76 wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 8:41pm
As it is, without independent verification, I think it's just been fabricated.
Just the sort of reply I would expect on here. :roll:
ossie
Posts: 1793
Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by ossie »

Mike Sales wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 8:37pm I note you do not claim that these roads, the M25 and the roads that feed traffic to and from it it, are free of traffic holdups except when there are protests. This would not be credible.
The journalist/drivers are happy to attribute blame, but neither can they claim that there are no RTCs or holdups on days without protests.
The fact is that this ring road was full as soon as it was built, and has only made these problems worse, not better. It does not keep traffic out of the surrounding area, this traffic is on its way to and from the M25.
The phenomenon of induced traffic is well understood, but the politics makes it difficult to admit.
The SE of England is a hell of traffic and building more and more roads has only encouraged more and more traffic, with the attendant problems of incidents and holdups.
To blame what is are everyday events on the protestors is disingenuous.
Encoraging more traffic by building more roads is not sustainable. We have been doing that for a hundred years but the problems have only got worse.
You equate blocking the M25 with an everyday event ?

Oh right, carry on then. Can we schedule a time and day so people can divert. Perhaps pop down and witness the carnage per chance ?
Mike Sales
Posts: 7860
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Mike Sales »

ossie wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 8:51pm

You equate blocking the M25 as an everyday event ?

Oh right, carry on then. Can we schedule a time and day so people can divert. Perhaps pop down and witness the carnage per chance ?
Are you telling me there are not everyday holdups on the M25?. I must have been very unlucky when we were driving round it.
Should traffic not be diverted every day? I have often heard complaints about holdups.
Is the road "carnage" free except when there are protestors?
It does seem to me that you think that the usual horrors around London are acceptable.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
ossie
Posts: 1793
Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by ossie »

Mike Sales wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 8:58pm
ossie wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 8:51pm

You equate blocking the M25 as an everyday event ?

Oh right, carry on then. Can we schedule a time and day so people can divert. Perhaps pop down and witness the carnage per chance ?
Are you telling me there are not everyday holdups on the M25?. I must have been very unlucky when we were driving round it.
Should traffic not be diverted every day? I have often heard complaints about holdups.
Is the road "carnage" free except when there are protestors?
It does seem to me that you think that the usual horrors around London are acceptable.
Absolutely there are holdups but these are major incidents. I mean if you think more hold ups than normal are justified (and acceptable) as I said lets come up with a timetable to book your slot.

Carnage is used everytime there's a major incident / serious holdup / accident on the M25....I'm not sure why you are trying so hard to condone it but these don't happen all of the time. Sheer weight of traffic is a different aspect, can usually be forecast and dealt with.

However If this is going to be the standard response then there's really no use in continuing the debate, you don't use the road, you don't live or cycle in the vicinity, you aren't impacted by the selfish deliberate actions of a few.
Stevek76
Posts: 2084
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Stevek76 »

I was wrong, highways england was reporting the protest delays on the 15th were clear by 11:30, so that's under 3hrs.

I think some healthy scepticism regarding an unverified caller to a radio station that exists on manufactured outrage is reasonable.

Re frequency of M25 being a carpark.

The very next day at about 7AM, a vehicle fire shut 3 lanes c/w and 2 ac/w between J10 & 11 with 6 miles of queues. If you look at the bbc news feed for a county that has some of the M25 in it you'll find numerous reports of disruption due to breakdowns & collisions. The M25, and frankly, most of the south east beyond more central parts of london is a car dependent basket case. Serious incidents do happen all the time in my experience.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Psamathe »

Does the M25 have a hard shoulder any more? (as I believe emergency vehicles are allowed to use the hard shoulder; I thought emergency use was the main purpose of the hard shoulder, what it was designed for).

Personally I feel it daft for hard shoulders to have been removed from some motorways and that the removal makes them somewhat more dangerous.

Ian
Oldjohnw
Posts: 7764
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: South Warwickshire

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Oldjohnw »

It’s a pity that the climate about which people were protesting doesn’t get people as outraged as the actions of the protesters seems to.

It's a pity when people are more angry with protesters than polluters.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 21 Sep 2021, 11:40pm, edited 1 time in total.
John
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