Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

thirdcrank
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by thirdcrank »

I had in mind the sort of serious charge which is inevitably dealt with in the Crown Court. It may well be that legislation is enacted to deal with this, but at the moment - and assuming the defendant was not driving in the conventional sense - then some form of manslaughter might be appropriate.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

mjr wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 5:12pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 4:36pm
mjr wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 4:09pm
Because we want the most noise to be inflicted in places with dense housing and residents must not get a noise pollution reduction from the switch to EVs? :roll:

Does it at least deactivate 11.30pm-7am (the hours when sounding a car horn is mostly illegal) so people in such areas can sleep more easily?
The idea is to replace engine noise for the benefit of blind and/or visually impaired persons, so no it doesn't.
It seems a tragedy that some other method to benefit them is not being implemented, so everyone, visually-impaired or not, must not get the benefit of quieter cars and better sleep.
I'm broadly in agreement with you but in fact I don't think it will be a sleep impediment for most people. I'm pretty sure it's not as loud as an ICE. And I believe it can be turned off. As for another method of alerting the blind, what do you suggest that is neither auditory, visual nor tactile? Maybe an aroma?!

It has been suggested by some that what is really needed is a sound to indicate "this vehicle is stationary and waiting for you to proceed across the crossing". This sound would of course also greatly benefit interactions between blind pedestrians and cyclists.

However, this sound business applies to EVs with drivers. I don't know what, if any, provision there is for auditory warnings on AVs, whether EV or ICE.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

There are a couple of things here...

One is that having overall quieter vehicles is a boon for all road users. You never know people might even notice the quiet bicycle coming along the road.

The other is that a large vehicle makes noise, there is no way around that. The amount of noise at the moment is plenty, it's just that there are various very loud vehicles, and people are more used to those. I am slightly surprised that the legislation isn't looking to the future and toning down the noise required over a couple of decades.

And finally - as someone who drives an EV, and does so without excessive use of the torque pedal... kids step off the pavement in front of me in an entirely predictable way - and it's exactly the same exactly predictable way they used to step off the pavement in front of me when I was driving a diesel ICE vehicle along that section of road.
This morning I had a car pull out of the last parking spot in a line and very nearly run into the side of me. I was going slowly and my emergency stop was fairly sharp - It was accompanied by a bip on the horn (as opposed to a blast) since I suspect that there would have been a collision anyway (he also stopped after the bip, so there wasn't).
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Jdsk
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Jdsk »

Probably the first charge for vehicular manslaughter of a driver using Autopilot:
https://electrek.co/2022/01/18/tesla-dr ... autopilot/

Jonathan
fastpedaller
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by fastpedaller »

Jdsk wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 10:01pm Probably the first charge for vehicular manslaughter of a driver using Autopilot:
https://electrek.co/2022/01/18/tesla-dr ... autopilot/

Jonathan
So the car didn't stop at a red light or when it 'saw' the car in front. That doesn't seem very safe to me. A driver relying on such technology has killed people. It's all very well saying "this will be better than humans", but how many humans will lose their lives or be seriously injured during the 'learning period'. It looks like a driver of a 'regular' car (not relying on any auto features provided by the car) would be aware that he was the one in control and needed to be alert at all times, and more likely to avoid this tragedy. The AI needs to be much more mature before we can rely on it.
Jdsk
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Jdsk »

fastpedaller wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 3:17pm
Jdsk wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 10:01pm Probably the first charge for vehicular manslaughter of a driver using Autopilot:
https://electrek.co/2022/01/18/tesla-dr ... autopilot/
So the car didn't stop at a red light or when it 'saw' the car in front. That doesn't seem very safe to me. A driver relying on such technology has killed people. It's all very well saying "this will be better than humans", but how many humans will lose their lives or be seriously injured during the 'learning period'. It looks like a driver of a 'regular' car (not relying on any auto features provided by the car) would be aware that he was the one in control and needed to be alert at all times, and more likely to avoid this tragedy. The AI needs to be much more mature before we can rely on it.
This case might affect the regulatory or legislative approach but I doubt it.

But the appropriate comparator is the overall safety, not a particular incident selected with the benefit of hindsight.

Jonathan
Stevek76
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Stevek76 »

I think the appropriate comparator is 'vision zero' (other names are available). That Tesla's software may or may not be able to outperform a human for safety (and I'm not sure it actually can from the videos I've seen) doesn't balance that having one's fans, who have no training in the matter, beta testing the self driving mode is a deeply irresponsible attitude to public safety. It's not like Tesla don't have previous in this area, whether it's trivialising and gamifying driving modes with things like plaid speed or pioneering large screens drivers are able to watch films or play games on while the car is moving.

I think automated vehicles have a huge amount to offer but I'm not keen on Tesla's cowboy attitude to it.
mjr wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 5:12pm It seems a tragedy that some other method to benefit them is not being implemented, so everyone, visually-impaired or not, must not get the benefit of quieter cars and better sleep.
It's not a loud sound, at 30km/h constant speed running tyre noise is already becoming the dominant noise source. Less cars altogether is how you get quieter streets.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Teslas can be programmed to break the law.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

My thoughts too on vehicle noise. The other day I was up on the Downs, a flat, open area bordered by a 30mph A road. Tyre noise dominated the whole area. Unfortunately, the modern fashions for wide but very shallow tyres, and for off-road style treads on road cars (SUVs), both make this worse. As speeds increase, wind noise becomes dominant. It's only at low speeds that engine noise is dominant on most ICE vehicles. And yes, we really need to reduce the total number of cars, regardless of power source.
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