Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

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mjr
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 3:02pm (For anybody whose geography is shaky for anywhere past Watford Gap, Doncaster is in South Yorkshire so it's a trek from North Lincs "to get justice."
Not much of a trek: Doncaster is just 10 miles from the western border of North Lincs (the modern name for Scunthorpe Borough and its neighbours), and direct trains make the 30min journey from Scunthorpe at least hourly (when the trains are running normally).
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simonineaston
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by simonineaston »

They can pop round and have a shufty at the car park in front of my flats, around 2pm say, just after the college kids have sat in their cars for lunch and just before the sea-gulls attend, in order to spread it all about... :lol:
S
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Mick F
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by Mick F »

thirdcrank wrote: 1 Dec 2021, 7:34pm AIUI the ownership of the land is irrelevant for littering offences ..................
Sorry, but completely off topic ......... what about wearing seatbelts in a car in a supermarket carpark?

Is a privately owned public-accessible area the same as a publicly owned one?
Mick F. Cornwall
Jdsk
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 6:52pm
thirdcrank wrote: 1 Dec 2021, 7:34pm AIUI the ownership of the land is irrelevant for littering offences ..................
Sorry, but completely off topic ......... what about wearing seatbelts in a car in a supermarket carpark?

Is a privately owned public-accessible area the same as a publicly owned one?
The Road Traffic Act definition of road:

(a)... in relation to England and Wales, means any highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes, and
(b)in relation to Scotland, means any road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 and any other way to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/19 ... ection/192
http://www.jamesmurraylaw.com/motoring- ... is-a-road/

(Area is a confusing term in this context.)

Jonathan
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mjr
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by mjr »

Jdsk wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 6:59pm
Mick F wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 6:52pm
thirdcrank wrote: 1 Dec 2021, 7:34pm AIUI the ownership of the land is irrelevant for littering offences ..................
Sorry, but completely off topic ......... what about wearing seatbelts in a car in a supermarket carpark?

Is a privately owned public-accessible area the same as a publicly owned one?
The Road Traffic Act definition of road:

(a)... in relation to England and Wales, means any highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes, and
(b)in relation to Scotland, means any road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 and any other way to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/19 ... ection/192
http://www.jamesmurraylaw.com/motoring- ... is-a-road/

(Area is a confusing term in this context.)
To be clearer: yes, for this sort of thing.

I've known people prosecuted for drunk-driving who crashed into the exit of a privately-owned car park. Their attempt to argue that it wasn't a road fell flat. I'm sure the same would apply to failure to belt in.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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gbnz
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by gbnz »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 1 Dec 2021, 6:02pm Hi,
Yes its true.
I will admit that I initially thought No way Josey :!:
But all legal.

My partners work mate got a letter and a £80 fine...................fag end....
? Did enjoy it
I think if there was no video /photo evidence you could appeal, certainly if a council inspector attempts any intimidation you are very unlikely to pay a fine.......
Quite a positive action by the council involved.. Aside from cigarette users being involved in a disgusting habit, which shouldn't really be done in public areas (Nb. Why can't they just inject it? It'd be far safer and have less impact on decent people), the officer involved should be congratulated.

Though I've always found various terms of user related verbal abuse directed directly at the users when they're near me, is very effective at getting users to move away, Really it's down to them to take their substances and litter out of a public place
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by thirdcrank »

Re seatbelts, like everything else it depends on the legislation. (The footnotes to the HC can be a good pointer here.)

The primary legislation for seatbelts is the RTA 1988 s 14
14 Seat belts: adults.

(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations requiring, subject to such exceptions as may be prescribed, persons who are driving or riding in motor vehicles on a road to wear seat belts of such description as may be prescribed. (My emphasis)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/14

A road for the purposes of this Act is defined in s 192
“road”

(a) in relation to England and Wales, means any highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes, (...)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/19 ... ection/192

So, if the defendant argues the point, it's up to the prosecution to prove it, as a question of fact. Before anybody says "what about?" consider the litter offence which prompted this thread: it has a specific wording to cover this offence. Even in the RTA, offences are not necessarily restricted to roads.
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by Hellhound »

mjr wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 5:26pm
thirdcrank wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 3:02pm (For anybody whose geography is shaky for anywhere past Watford Gap, Doncaster is in South Yorkshire so it's a trek from North Lincs "to get justice."
Not much of a trek: Doncaster is just 10 miles from the western border of North Lincs (the modern name for Scunthorpe Borough and its neighbours), and direct trains make the 30min journey from Scunthorpe at least hourly (when the trains are running normally).
Much of N.Lincs has a Doncaster(DN) postcode despite being a different County.
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Mick F
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by Mick F »

TC.
Thank you.
Mick F. Cornwall
thirdcrank
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by thirdcrank »

mjr wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 5:26pm
thirdcrank wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 3:02pm (For anybody whose geography is shaky for anywhere past Watford Gap, Doncaster is in South Yorkshire so it's a trek from North Lincs "to get justice."
Not much of a trek: Doncaster is just 10 miles from the western border of North Lincs (the modern name for Scunthorpe Borough and its neighbours), and direct trains make the 30min journey from Scunthorpe at least hourly (when the trains are running normally).
I'm thinking of the days when magistrates' courts were local eg in the newly-created Leeds Metropolitan district (1974) there were magistrates' courts in Leeds city centre, and others at Morley, Pudsey, Otley and Wetherby. The only area out on a limb was Rothwell etc., where they had to trail to Wetherby. That's all in central Leeds now, to the inconvenience of everybody except perhaps the CPS. And Leeds is a conurbation. Anybody out in the sticks like North Yorkshire is in a sort of wilderness.
gbnz
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by gbnz »

gbnz wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 7:25pm
NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 1 Dec 2021, 6:02pm Hi,
Yes its true.
I will admit that I initially thought No way Josey :!:
But all legal.

My partners work mate got a letter and a £80 fine...................fag end....
? Did enjoy it
I think if there was no video /photo evidence you could appeal, certainly if a council inspector attempts any intimidation you are very unlikely to pay a fine.......
Quite a positive action by the council involved.. Aside from cigarette users being involved in a disgusting habit, which shouldn't really be done in public areas (Nb. Why can't they just inject it? It'd be far safer and have less impact on decent people), they shouldn't be littering
pete75
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by pete75 »

thirdcrank wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 9:39am
mjr wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 5:26pm
thirdcrank wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 3:02pm (For anybody whose geography is shaky for anywhere past Watford Gap, Doncaster is in South Yorkshire so it's a trek from North Lincs "to get justice."
Not much of a trek: Doncaster is just 10 miles from the western border of North Lincs (the modern name for Scunthorpe Borough and its neighbours), and direct trains make the 30min journey from Scunthorpe at least hourly (when the trains are running normally).
I'm thinking of the days when magistrates' courts were local eg in the newly-created Leeds Metropolitan district (1974) there were magistrates' courts in Leeds city centre, and others at Morley, Pudsey, Otley and Wetherby. The only area out on a limb was Rothwell etc., where they had to trail to Wetherby. That's all in central Leeds now, to the inconvenience of everybody except perhaps the CPS. And Leeds is a conurbation. Anybody out in the sticks like North Yorkshire is in a sort of wilderness.
Courts have been closed to save MOJ money not for the convenience of the CPS.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by thirdcrank »

What I meant was that the CPS are not inconvenienced but IIRC it was done to save money for the MOJ by one G Hoon in his capacity as Minister of State for Constitutional Affairs as part of New Labour "joined up government." Even if people are not bothered that alleged litter depositers trail from eg Scunthorpe to Donny, that applies to all the other court users. eg Local courts have local probation offices. And inconveniencing witnesses doesn't encourage them to get involved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Hoon

My reference to Rothwell above reminds me of what I think was the only time I made it into the national press and before the CPS had been invented. Before we got going at Wetherby Magistrates' Second Court, a hack from the Daily Telegraph asked my name and settled in the public gallery. It turned out he had been sent to report the case of somebody being prosecuted for having a parked car with no insurance etc., on the street outside his house. There had been a lot of aggro about the circumstances in which he had been interviewed because he had heart trouble.

His court appearance was a bit like John MacEnroe used to be - very shouty - and certainly belied any suggestion of poor health. After it was all over including the shouting and there was nobody in the public gallery, the elderly chair of the bench leaned over and asked why this type of people came to Wetherby.
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by briansnail »

Looks like Thirdcrank made a good point.Does Thirdcrank suggest payment or delay.If you had ridden your bicycle to the supermarket they could not take your car number.However I do realise its impossible to get all the shopping on a bike.
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Re: Council Fine litter Dropping In Supermarket Carpark!

Post by Mick F »

thirdcrank wrote: 12 Jan 2022, 8:05pm Re seatbelts, like everything else it depends on the legislation. (The footnotes to the HC can be a good pointer here.)

The primary legislation for seatbelts is the RTA 1988 s 14
14 Seat belts: adults.

(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations requiring, subject to such exceptions as may be prescribed, persons who are driving or riding in motor vehicles on a road to wear seat belts of such description as may be prescribed. (My emphasis)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/14

A road for the purposes of this Act is defined in s 192
“road”

(a) in relation to England and Wales, means any highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes, (...)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/19 ... ection/192

So, if the defendant argues the point, it's up to the prosecution to prove it, as a question of fact. Before anybody says "what about?" consider the litter offence which prompted this thread: it has a specific wording to cover this offence. Even in the RTA, offences are not necessarily restricted to roads.
Sorry for resurrecting this. :oops:

We called in at Tesco Callington this afternoon, and there is a "zebra crossing" near the entrance into the shop.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.50591 ... 312!8i6656
I understand courtesy and protecting the vulnerable etc and would and do always give way, but what is the legality of a Tesco carpark painted zebra crossing that actually isn't a zebra crossing as per the official layout?

No flashing beacons, and non-standard and not officially painted white bits?
Mick F. Cornwall
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