Thanks for the Wind Farms

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ANTONISH
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Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by ANTONISH »

Battery storage may go a small way to ameliorating the storage problem - in no way is it a solution.
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by Jdsk »

ANTONISH wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 9:32am Battery storage may go a small way to ameliorating the storage problem - in no way is it a solution.
What does this mean, please?

What would a "solution" be?

Thanks

Jonathan
ambodach
Posts: 1023
Joined: 15 Mar 2011, 6:45pm

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by ambodach »

I have not been through al the posts so may have missed a reference to tidal energy which is sadly neglected. There are a few generators working around Orkney and the Pentland Firth with a fair amount of success. There was one anchored at the seaward side of the Connel Ferry bridge for a while for testing. Tests must have been successful as it went off to I think Indonesia.
The government seems biased against tidal for some reason as it seems a sensible and reliable solution.
ANTONISH
Posts: 2967
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by ANTONISH »

Jdsk wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 9:39am
ANTONISH wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 9:32am Battery storage may go a small way to ameliorating the storage problem - in no way is it a solution.
What does this mean, please?

What would a "solution" be?

Thanks

Jonathan
A solution would be a solution to the problem of energy storage with intermittent energy supply.
We don't have storage which could provide 10% of our electrical demand over several days and with energy supplies such as wind we could easily lose that in still conditions.
Battery storage may provide that for a short period but it isn't a solution if still conditions last for a few days.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks.

So there's currently (!) not enough storage, but batteries could contribute?

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by Jdsk »

ambodach wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 3:00pm I have not been through al the posts so may have missed a reference to tidal energy which is sadly neglected. There are a few generators working around Orkney and the Pentland Firth with a fair amount of success. There was one anchored at the seaward side of the Connel Ferry bridge for a while for testing. Tests must have been successful as it went off to I think Indonesia.
The government seems biased against tidal for some reason as it seems a sensible and reliable solution.
"UK government announces biggest investment into Britain’s tidal power":
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-g ... idal-power

£20M/y. I have no idea how much of this is new money. Nor whether we should be spending more on it.

Jonathan
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by roubaixtuesday »

ambodach wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 3:00pm I have not been through al the posts so may have missed a reference to tidal energy which is sadly neglected. There are a few generators working around Orkney and the Pentland Firth with a fair amount of success. There was one anchored at the seaward side of the Connel Ferry bridge for a while for testing. Tests must have been successful as it went off to I think Indonesia.
The government seems biased against tidal for some reason as it seems a sensible and reliable solution.
AIUI not only are those generators are very small scale (the much touted "world's biggest" is just 2MW) but the total potential of such in the UK is small.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... 991351.amp

For tidal to be a significant contributor you need a scheme like Swansea Bay, or the mooted Severn Barrage, where huge artificial lagoons are created.

Such schemes are hugely expensive and create significant environmental damage.

Swansea Bay was estimated at £1.3bn for 320 MW. Wind is much cheaper.

A Severn Barrage would be in the 10s of billions.
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by Jdsk »

Thankyou for the numbers.

Jonathan
ANTONISH
Posts: 2967
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by ANTONISH »

Jdsk wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 3:32pm Thanks.

So there's currently (!) not enough storage, but batteries could contribute?

Jonathan
Yes - but not enough to replace 10% of capacity.
To give the output of a 2GW conventional power station over 24hrs would require 48GWhr of battery capacity.
An EV with a longer than usual range would have a battery of around 90kWhr.
Half a million or so would suffice - if 24hrs is long enough.
I'm rather pessimistic about the long term if we continue on a zero carbon non nuclear path.
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by Jdsk »

Thankyou

Jonathan
ambodach
Posts: 1023
Joined: 15 Mar 2011, 6:45pm

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by ambodach »

Jdsk wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 3:46pm
ambodach wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 3:00pm I have not been through al the posts so may have missed a reference to tidal energy which is sadly neglected. There are a few generators working around Orkney and the Pentland Firth with a fair amount of success. There was one anchored at the seaward side of the Connel Ferry bridge for a while for testing. Tests must have been successful as it went off to I think Indonesia.
The government seems biased against tidal for some reason as it seems a sensible and reliable solution.
"UK government announces biggest investment into Britain’s tidal power":
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-g ... idal-power

£20M/y. I have no idea how much of this is new money. Nor whether we should be spending more on it.

Jonathan
The Scottish government has been investing but this "new" money comes from Westminster presumably. It could just be smoke and mirrors so need to wait and see.
ambodach
Posts: 1023
Joined: 15 Mar 2011, 6:45pm

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by ambodach »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 3:47pm
ambodach wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 3:00pm I have not been through al the posts so may have missed a reference to tidal energy which is sadly neglected. There are a few generators working around Orkney and the Pentland Firth with a fair amount of success. There was one anchored at the seaward side of the Connel Ferry bridge for a while for testing. Tests must have been successful as it went off to I think Indonesia.
The government seems biased against tidal for some reason as it seems a sensible and reliable solution.
AIUI not only are those generators are very small scale (the much touted "world's biggest" is just 2MW) but the total potential of such in the UK is small.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... 991351.amp

For tidal to be a significant contributor you need a scheme like Swansea Bay, or the mooted Severn Barrage, where huge artificial lagoons are created.

Such schemes are hugely expensive and create significant environmental damage.

Swansea Bay was estimated at £1.3bn for 320 MW. Wind is much cheaper.

A Severn Barrage would be in the 10s of billions.
I would argue that tidal power is potentially of great importance. Places with good tidal flows such as Pentland Firth or Menai Straits have potential for expansion to much bigger projects without the need for barrages which in any case are unpopular with the public.
There was one proposed for somewhere in southern England but public opinion was very much against it and the scheme was dropped.
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by roubaixtuesday »

ambodach wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 6:15pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 3:47pm
ambodach wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 3:00pm I have not been through al the posts so may have missed a reference to tidal energy which is sadly neglected. There are a few generators working around Orkney and the Pentland Firth with a fair amount of success. There was one anchored at the seaward side of the Connel Ferry bridge for a while for testing. Tests must have been successful as it went off to I think Indonesia.
The government seems biased against tidal for some reason as it seems a sensible and reliable solution.
AIUI not only are those generators are very small scale (the much touted "world's biggest" is just 2MW) but the total potential of such in the UK is small.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... 991351.amp

For tidal to be a significant contributor you need a scheme like Swansea Bay, or the mooted Severn Barrage, where huge artificial lagoons are created.

Such schemes are hugely expensive and create significant environmental damage.

Swansea Bay was estimated at £1.3bn for 320 MW. Wind is much cheaper.

A Severn Barrage would be in the 10s of billions.
I would argue that tidal power is potentially of great importance. Places with good tidal flows such as Pentland Firth or Menai Straits have potential for expansion to much bigger projects without the need for barrages which in any case are unpopular with the public.
There was one proposed for somewhere in southern England but public opinion was very much against it and the scheme was dropped.
What is "much bigger"? Quantification is everything!

Interested to hear why public opinion would be against such projects too. Makes no sense to me, but there's always some reason to oppose such, I guess.
ANTONISH
Posts: 2967
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by ANTONISH »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 7:14pm

Interested to hear why public opinion would be against such projects too. Makes no sense to me, but there's always some reason to oppose such, I guess.
There is a price to pay for all energy projects.
Renewables such as tidal require large areas of storage and involve massive works and materials to be constructed.
The energy stored isn't great in terms of the area of water/land required due to the relatively low head of water compared with something like Dinorwic.
There is an inevitable loss of wild life habitat. There are objectors of course.
France has had a tidal scheme on the west coast for decades. Presumably they could have built more.
Perhaps fortunately for us they chose to invest in nuclear and we have been able to purchase their surplus for some time.
If I recall correctly the original link (Sellinge to Les Attaques) was meant to be a reciprocal arrangement to allow for the different periods of peak demand between the two countries.
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by Jdsk »

ANTONISH wrote: 22 Jan 2022, 5:21pmFrance has had a tidal scheme on the west coast for decades.
Rance? That's on the north coast. The Rance flows into the Channel.

Average 57 MW, peak 240 MW.

Jonathan
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