BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

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axel_knutt
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by axel_knutt »

simonhill wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 12:59pm a number of reasons why our roads have got more dangerous.

Reduction in policing;
Speed cameras switched off;
Dangerous roads;
Reduction in use of breathalysers; and
Bad driving.
Another one they mentioned (12m35s) was smart motorways which have now just been put on hold, but Leeds Uni have shown they are safer (8m05s), which raises the issue of perceived safety vs actual safety. If people perceive something as being less safe than it really is, risk compensation will likely cause a beneficial effect on their behaviour, but only if you can stop knee-jerk reactions to their protests from HMG.
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thirdcrank
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by thirdcrank »

I should have thought there were too many things going on at once to be able to know what was being reviewed. Variable speed limits must be a good thing if they are correctly set then enforced. If they are set higher than the current mode of the traffic then they are at least pointless and possibly an incitement for drivers to aim for a target speed. Scrapping the hard shoulder is open for research. The original rationale for smart motorways (based on a model from the Netherlands IIRC) was that if the speed limit was reduced to 50mph, opening the hard shoulder as a running lane would be ok. The leap has been made to scrapping the hard shoulder with the default variable limit being 70.

The death of Jason Mercer is one of the smart motorway deaths which has been the focus of campaigning. (Two killed then, BTW)

https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/1730038 ... explained/

Both deceased in that crash had been involved in a minor bump and had stopped on the motorway to exchange details in the absence of a hard shoulder and were wiped out by a careless HGV driver.

One obvious step imo would be to change the law on stopping after a crash. Not easy to do, given all the why's and wherefores and after many crashes the vehicles are immobile.
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mjr
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

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Pete Owens wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 10:49am [A82]
Increased traffic volume tends to correlate to lower speeds - though over the last two years there lockdowns have reduced the volume of traffic on that route - which is heavily dominated by tourists. There have been no recent changes to the road itself.
Part of the reason for calling the road itself dangerous seemed to be that little is being done to lower speeds to those required for the increased volume of ever-larger vehicles to pass through safely (no speed cameras, no revised lower limits on blind bend/narrow approaches...). So, as soon as there's a bit of clear road, a bad driver barrels into a blind area at unsafe speed, able to keep gambling with their own and others' lives with impunity until they lose. Increased traffic volume increases the chance of them meeting oncoming traffic and losing their gamble.

Faced with the obvious choice between either upgrading the road or adding more control measures to catch gambling drivers before they hurt someone, Transport Scotland seems to be doing neither.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mjr
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by mjr »

axel_knutt wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 1:53pm
Another one they mentioned (12m35s) was smart motorways which have now just been put on hold, but Leeds Uni have shown they are safer (8m05s),
Registration-free listening about that Leeds Uni study at https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09kxjnc

The Leeds Uni report was looking at something slightly different, whether casualties and severity of those were reduced, which could be explained by the increased normally-driveable width and the reductions in traffic speeds.

The Panorama episode seemed to suggest that the smart motorways roll-out was paused in part because the distance between refuges is currently bigger than the recommended distance and the stopped-vehicle detectors don't work reliably.
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mattheus
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by mattheus »

ChrisButch wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 1:26pm I used to be similarly perplexed, until somebody told me the sign is intended to warn you of fallen rocks on the road, as a consequence of the event depicted. This is indeed a fairly common hazard on Alpine roads.
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gcogger
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by gcogger »

Large boulder the size of a small boulder :?
PT1029
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by PT1029 »

Variable speed limits must be a good thing if they are correctly set then enforced
I recall effective enforcement (once!) on the M25, I think before the installation of the variable speed limit regime now in place. Approx J16 - 15 anticlockwise. Long term roard works + lane closure + 50 limit. I slowed to 55 (would have gone to 50 but felt better at 55 as it reduced the speed differential between me and all the traffic speeding past me......). Then everyone suddenly slowed to 50.......
There was a big sign saying "number of speeding tickets issed in these roadworks" - with a 4 digit counter, it was in the 8 thousand and something, and in the brief time I saw the sign the last digit was ramping up the numbers as I went past.
thirdcrank
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by thirdcrank »

In my reply to roubaixtuesday, I linked to the thematic inspection of roads policing and an earlier discussion where I suggested that the inspection appeared to be a power grab by Highways England as was to take over motorway policing
Jdsk
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by Jdsk »

mjr wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 2:44pm
axel_knutt wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 1:53pm
Another one they mentioned (12m35s) was smart motorways which have now just been put on hold, but Leeds Uni have shown they are safer (8m05s),
Registration-free listening about that Leeds Uni study at https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09kxjnc

The Leeds Uni report was looking at something slightly different, whether casualties and severity of those were reduced, which could be explained by the increased normally-driveable width and the reductions in traffic speeds.

The Panorama episode seemed to suggest that the smart motorways roll-out was paused in part because the distance between refuges is currently bigger than the recommended distance and the stopped-vehicle detectors don't work reliably.
There were favourable results. But the subsequent roll-outs didn't include the mitigating design features.

This was a serious mistake.

But it wouldn't have mattered so much if there had been high-quality statistical analysis of what was actually implemented and if it had been publicly available. Unfortunately it all moved into secrecy and scandal.

We'll see if the new body makes any difference.

Jonathan
Stevek76
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by Stevek76 »

thirdcrank wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 2:21pm
Both deceased in that crash had been involved in a minor bump and had stopped on the motorway to exchange details in the absence of a hard shoulder and were wiped out by a careless HGV driver.

One obvious step imo would be to change the law on stopping after a crash.
Not sure how the presence of a hard shoulder would have made a difference there. If they weren't going to move to the nearest refuge and exchange details there would they have moved to the hard shoulder?

Cynically I think much of the opposition from certain groups to smart motorways is far more because they come with cameras that, since 2016 or so, are on 24/7 enforcing the 70mph limit, not just and temporary reduced speeds.
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thirdcrank
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by thirdcrank »

The hard shoulder has never been considered a safe place by motorway police but it's a whole lot safer than a running lane. (Colleagues in the Motorway Unit used to talk about vehicles on the hard shoulder seeming to be a magnet. With no scientific basis, I always assumed that some approaching drivers seeing a stationary vehicle "clocked" it as moving in the first lane.)

My point was that Jason Mercer stopped in a live lane to exchange details in compliance with both the law and the relevant bit of the HC and nothing seems to have been done to change that.

I agree completely that a lot of the opposition to smart motorways comes from opponents of speed limits and their enforcement. This was partly behind me writing this above:
I should have thought there were too many things going on at once to be able to know what was being reviewed.
I don't drive high mileages but I'm close to several motorways
  • A1(M) Newly-built conventional motorway
  • M1 Four lane carriageways with no hard shoulder
  • M62 Three lane carriageways with variable hard shoulder
  • A 58(M) Leeds Inner Ring Road, two lane carriageways built to non-motorway standards with 40mph limit
  • M 621 Partly built to "urban motorway standards" where a largely unenforced 50 mph applies.
I've plenty of chance to observe motorway traffic in different layouts.

If I've not made myself clear, I favour speed limits matched to things like sight lines, including variable speed limits matched to variable conditions such as weight of traffic or adverse weather. A perceived lack of enforcement can negate the benefits of speed limits if the would-be speeders seem to speed with impunity. AIUI, a large part of the intended benefit of variable speed limits is to smooth the traffic flow.
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mjr
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote: 22 Jan 2022, 3:01pm My point was that Jason Mercer stopped in a live lane to exchange details in compliance with both the law and the relevant bit of the HC and nothing seems to have been done to change that.
Can you explain how stopping in a live lane complies with rules 275 & 283 (among others) of the current Highway Code, please?

Maybe they have been updated since then. I've not checked the law, but I hope the Code wouldn't completely contradict it.
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thirdcrank
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by thirdcrank »

You are right - and I am wrong. As were the late Jason Mercer and Alexandru Murgeanu.

(It would be pedantic on my part to say that the RTA s 170 refers to accident and the HC to incident.)
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RickH
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by RickH »

mattheus wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 6:11pm
DaveReading wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 5:12pm A suitable parallel might be the distinction made in accident investigation across a number of sectors between "primary cause" and "contributing factors".

So it would be perfectly possible for a road accident to have a primary cause of driver error (incompetence, inattention, lack of skill/judgement, etc) but with a contributory factor being road design/maintenance/etc.
Yes, that's a good description.

But the road design didn't harm anyone - the poor driver making an error did. Without the driver there, the road is perfectly safe!
Better road design can influence the behaviour of those liable to drive in a more dangerous manner, such as wide throated junctions in residential areas that enable folk likely to speed to take corners without slowing & also necessitate pedestrians spending longer time in the road crossing the extra width of the carriageway.
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mjr
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Re: BBC Program on Why Are Our Roads Getting Less Safe

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote: 22 Jan 2022, 9:26pm You are right - and I am wrong. As were the late Jason Mercer and Alexandru Murgeanu.

(It would be pedantic on my part to say that the RTA s 170 refers to accident and the HC to incident.)
Thanks. You're usually so accurate on such matters that I thought I must be confused.

Even so, mistakes shouldn't carry a death penalty but they sometimes do on British roads.
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