SPDs = cold feet in winter?

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Jdsk
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by Jdsk »

mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 2:24pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 10:23am Thermal cameras can be hired quite easily and for not too much money. They're typically used for checking heat loss in buildings. It should be easy to use to check whether there is indeed much heat loss through the cleat.
But what would it show? Probably only radiant heat loss? I believe wind chill is the biggest effect when cycling.
With thermal imaging I'd start with the sole from the outside after wearing the shoes: is it warmer around the point of attachment? Then I'd repeat that after cycling. Then I'd add some extra insole insulation in one shoe and do both of those again with left-right comparison.

I think that it might not be possible to image the area of interest on the inside with a camera. But it would be possible to take local temperature readings with a probe.

Jonathan
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fausto99
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by fausto99 »

mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 2:24pm ...I believe wind chill is the biggest effect when cycling.
+1 on wind chill. The next best insulator to a vacuum is air, so keep piling on the layers to trap more air until you acheive the warmth you desire.
zenitb
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by zenitb »

fausto99 wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 10:50am
mattheus wrote: 13 Jan 2022, 2:24pm ...I believe wind chill is the biggest effect when cycling.
+1 on wind chill. The next best insulator to a vacuum is air, so keep piling on the layers to trap more air until you acheive the warmth you desire.
Moving this into the shoe domain you can see that getting a slightly larger winter shoe size means more volume for thick socks and more warm air trapped.

Speaking more generally it always amazes me that people spend huge amounts on their bikes (carbon this, Ultegra that) but then try and bodge their summer clothing and footwear for winter use. In my full winter "wets" I can do a days cycle touring in rain and still be dry and warm at the end of it. Adding up the goretex top, waterproof outer trousers/Barricade inners, dedicated insulated winter boots, sealskin gloves, waterproof helmet cover, mudgards and mudflaps adds up to over £300 in my case but surely worth it? I read accounts on the internet of people "drying their socks at work" (after having cycled to work in mesh shoes) with incredulity and dispair. Its the 2020s not the 1970s people !!!!!

Sorry - On this forum I am almost certainly preaching to the converted on this but I am going to get it off my chest anyway :-)
GideonReade
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by GideonReade »

Responding specifically to the original query, I have a great big sturdy pair of Northwave MTB boots with Goretex blah blah. As bought they really did make a big positive difference to my feet. Except for a glaringly obvious cold patch right under each foot. Ie at the SPD. Two bolt & double sided in my case. A big fat thermal insole largely resolved it though. I agree room inside the boot is essential. My feet are very flat, if a boot is wide enough there's always spare height.

On the road though I prefer SPD sandals, Sealskinz over inner socks (one can always make more room in sandals), and overshoes/gaiters. On a long trip I can easily carry dry socks & Sealskinz. But this system isn't robust offroad, and a fiddle any day.

I don't agree that the SPD cleat is a very small heatsink, it's quite a lump of metal, out in the airstream or wet, and partly touching more metal.

My tuppence worth..
jb
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by jb »

When I place my phone in my pocket & it's running an app it can feel like it's burning a hole in my pocket. But if I take it out it's just barely warm.
I think the same thing can happen in reverse with the pedals feeling like a cold spot which is actually not that much different to the rest of your foot.
Most pedals, SPD or not, have been metal for a long while. So they must all cause the same effect to some degree or another.
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GideonReade
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by GideonReade »

..but "pedals" are under the sole of the shoe, the thickness of it away from your foot: The two-bolt SPDs have a big lump of metal - the cleat's supporting plate - recessed into the sole, and bolted to an external heatsink. And for obvious practical reasons, designs may leave only a very thin layer of sole/insole over that plate.
mattheus
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by mattheus »

GideonReade wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 9:26am ..but "pedals" are under the sole of the shoe, the thickness of it away from your foot: The two-bolt SPDs have a big lump of metal - the cleat's supporting plate - recessed into the sole, and bolted to an external heatsink. And for obvious practical reasons, designs may leave only a very thin layer of sole/insole over that plate.
So there's a sort-of 3-layer sandwich here, right?

A) Inner plate - metal (with 2 threaded holes)
B) shoe sole - mostly plastic? (perhaps CF-impregnated if you're fancy)
C) cleat - some other metal (with 2 holes in for the screws)

You then have 2 bolts - with 6mm shafts - connecting A) to C).

I think this means all of this "extra" heat-loss is being conducted through those 2 x 6mm diameter bolts.

My gut instinct is that this is a very ineffective design for a heat-sink, and will not be a big factor.
However, the sums aren't complex if you understand heat transfer; so please calculate an actual figure to show that my instinct is wrong.
GideonReade
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by GideonReade »

Hmm, well it's probably:

0) Insole, highly variable according to design
1) Airgap as inner plate is clamped to shoe sole
A) Inner plate - metal (with 2 threaded partial sleeves)
B) shoe sole - mostly plastic? (perhaps CF-impregnated if you're fancy)
C) cleat - some other metal (with 2 holes in for the screws).

I'm not sure the model is that simple, as the inner plate will "collect" heat from foot. I agree the bolts, even adding the sleeves on the plate, can't transfer huge heat. But enough to notice I guess. Metal bolts through insulating materials do collect condensate inside homes & campervans.

Agreed interesting to work out heat flow, but probably beyond my current means, wit or attention span...
Stradageek
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by Stradageek »

Outside temperature zero degrees Centigrade, two hour ride in cleated shoes on a recumbent, feet toasty warm.

10/10 for chemical foot warmers, total cost 80p and I've slipped them into my slippers for a nice warm afternoon :D
thirdcrank
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by thirdcrank »

Perhaps one important point here is that if you think something's not right, it will play on your mind enough to spoil any sort of ride.
Stevek76
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by Stevek76 »

I'd think cycling shoes in general will provide less insulation as the insoles are generally much thinner and the soles denser but the SPD patch being colder is absolutely a thing for me.
GideonReade wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 1:17pm I agree the bolts, even adding the sleeves on the plate, can't transfer huge heat. But enough to notice I guess. Metal bolts through insulating materials do collect condensate inside homes & campervans.

Agreed interesting to work out heat flow, but probably beyond my current means, wit or attention span...
thermal bridging is a major consideration when insulating properties, a couple of metal bolts will absolutely happily suck away heat to the exterior.
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geocycle
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by geocycle »

thirdcrank wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 2:15pm Perhaps one important point here is that if you think something's not right, it will play on your mind enough to spoil any sort of ride.
One of the most important statements I have read on these boards for a long time! Time spent on the bike magnifies the negative pictures forming between the ears.
fredN4
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by fredN4 »

Boring_Username wrote: 9 Jan 2022, 9:11pm I have used SPDs for many years and am a great fan.

However, I also suffer from cold feet in winter. I have tried many solutions - mountaineering socks, winter shoes, overshoes, thermal insoles, etc. All help, but none really seems to hit the nail on the head.

I can't get the idea out of my head that putting your cold-vulnerable foot 3mm from a cold metal plate which attaches to your cold metal SPD cleats and your cold SPD metal pedals and your cold metal bike, probably doesn't help.

So I'm thinking - could I break the chain - e.g. with plastic SPD cleats (yes I would be happy to change them once every few weeks) - and address the cold feet problem at that end?
if you suffer from cold feet, like me, you are stuffed. Best accept it.
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horizon
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by horizon »

thirdcrank wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 2:15pm Perhaps one important point here is that if you think something's not right, it will play on your mind enough to spoil any sort of ride.
I agree and my mind started to dwell on:
I'd think cycling shoes in general will provide less insulation as the insoles are generally much thinner and the soles denser .
I've been experimenting on recent rides using a combination of Sealskinz (the warmest they do), overshoes and thin socks. Together they do work (0 deg C on a quick downhill into the cold wind was fine) but I did notice the underfoot cold. I just don't think cycling shoe soles are particularly good at keeping your feet warm - that is where the cold seemed to be coming from, metal cleats or not. So I've bought a pair of fleecy liners and will see how I get on (if they fit in the ever-decreasing space inside the shoe).
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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freiston
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Re: SPDs = cold feet in winter?

Post by freiston »

I've been thinking about this thread a bit when out and about and today, with my "summer/all year" shoes, no spats and a chilly turn to the air, I did notice that the cold air, coming in to my shoes from the front mesh area of the upper, was making itself felt around my toes and the ball of my foot, making its way towards the back of the shoe around the sides of my foot particularly at the arch, the corresponding outer edge and under my instep. I still didn't notice any more heat loss/cold striking up from the insole than anywhere else - maybe less.
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
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