Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

thirdcrank
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by thirdcrank »

Currently, much of the traffic "management" is attempted with physical means - various forms of obstruction. This has been partly because of a view that they should be self-enforcing or, put another way, no police involvement. IMO, the obvious step is make the traffic authority responsible for enforcement - which would generally involve greater use of technology. At present, this seems limited outside London but it must be coming.

I persist with my view that the big problem in residential streets is the fear - white funk - among local councillors of upsetting a street or two of residents. This is why residents' parking schemes are so sensitive. Most people passing through a local authority ward have no vote there, while residents do and rattled residents are the most likely to use it.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

mjr wrote: 14 May 2022, 10:53pm
thirdcrank wrote: 14 May 2022, 9:51amThis doesn't need to be logical in that those residents may well want it both ways: no through traffic but total freedom of movement for their own vehicles and any visitors.
I'm not sure they'd object to visitors having to leave by the route they entered. The rest is possible with modern technology, if there's political will.
You came in the front door, you'll go out the front door. But this is of course not the way it's presented in the popular press and radio etc. That's more like "My99 year old disabled grandmother now has to walk five miles to visit me because she's not allowed to park outside our house" and "But how will I get my Amazon deliveries!"
thirdcrank
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by thirdcrank »

A big reason for non-local traffic to use rat-runs is to escape the main routes. Now, if you block a rat-run anywhere along its length, the residents are obliged to use the main routes that others would prefer to avoid. We're not talking about somebody moving into a cul-de-sac but having one created under their feet. The trade-off of less convenience for improved amenity doesn't appear like that to anybody who thinks they should have it both ways. This is why I think mjr's suggestion of technology is the only approach which might be effective.
ratherbeintobago
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

thirdcrank wrote: 15 May 2022, 4:49pm A big reason for non-local traffic to use rat-runs is to escape the main routes. Now, if you block a rat-run anywhere along its length, the residents are obliged to use the main routes that others would prefer to avoid. We're not talking about somebody moving into a cul-de-sac but having one created under their feet. The trade-off of less convenience for improved amenity doesn't appear like that to anybody who thinks they should have it both ways. This is why I think mjr's suggestion of technology is the only approach which might be effective.
But some traffic does evaporate - the converse of induced demand (presumably as suddenly it's not worth driving 2 miles for what was 300m)
thirdcrank
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by thirdcrank »

I'm not the one who has to be persuaded. I'm just trying to explain the realpolitik
mattheus
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by mattheus »

It's lack of fore-thought (or perhaps not seeing the bigger picture) that is indeed the trouble here (plus the populist media :roll: )
thirdcrank wrote: 15 May 2022, 4:49pm We're not talking about somebody moving into a cul-de-sac but having one created under their feet.
The bizarre thing about that concern, is I never saw an Estate Agent ad trumpeting a house location as "on a convenient through road"
["with almost no children playing to inconvenience you!"]
ratherbeintobago
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

That’s the rub, isn’t it?

While I appreciate there will be a small proportion of people living in a potential LTN who won’t want it, a pound to a penny says the majority of people complaining don’t live there but use it as a through-route.
thirdcrank
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by thirdcrank »

Looking at this down the other end of the spyglass, why isn't it happening? IIRC Political will has been mentioned which is another way of saying democracy - and that operates at different levels. High up, central government decides policy - in traffic matter to be delivered by traffic authorities (in residential schemes often the local authority) and at street level, local ward councillors pay assiduous attention to their electorate particularly the vociferous elements.

That's not the only factor, of course. Other organisations have to be consulted about the final plans at the TRO stage, but diligent local councillors are in there before that stage is reached.

In the absence of physical barriers, enforcement is often a problem eg if there's a road closure with exceptions for local residents, any criminal enforcement involves interviewing suspected offenders - under caution with a record - about what exemption - if any - they are using. If a ticket isn't paid, court is the next option.

That's why I think civil enforcement by the traffic authority is the only realistic approach. The most obvious example is a vehicle is identified by ANPR entering the prohibited area and ditto when it leaves. If that's at the other end of the scheme after a short delay, then that's a fixed penalty. With fine tuning for variations. This is all on top of the police not wanting to know about the enforcement of residential schemes.
Jdsk
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Jdsk »

I think that it is happening.

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mjr
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote: 16 May 2022, 10:31am Looking at this down the other end of the spyglass, why isn't it happening? IIRC Political will has been mentioned which is another way of saying democracy - [...]
Not really. It's more another way of saying that trivial matters like health, exercise, air quality, right to quiet and fairness are often lost behind important topics like whose party leader (not up for election) partied with whom in our current implementation of local government.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

thirdcrank wrote: 16 May 2022, 10:31am In the absence of physical barriers, enforcement is often a problem eg if there's a road closure with exceptions for local residents, any criminal enforcement involves interviewing suspected offenders - under caution with a record - about what exemption - if any - they are using. If a ticket isn't paid, court is the next option.

That's why I think civil enforcement by the traffic authority is the only realistic approach. The most obvious example is a vehicle is identified by ANPR entering the prohibited area and ditto when it leaves. If that's at the other end of the scheme after a short delay, then that's a fixed penalty. With fine tuning for variations. This is all on top of the police not wanting to know about the enforcement of residential schemes.
That's why I think physical barriers are more effective. They do the job without relying on the will for enforcement, and they prevent locals using the shortcuts too. And you don't need to call it anything divisive like LTN or Residents' Zone, just a couple of bollards.
ratherbeintobago
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

mjr wrote: 16 May 2022, 10:44am
thirdcrank wrote: 16 May 2022, 10:31am Looking at this down the other end of the spyglass, why isn't it happening? IIRC Political will has been mentioned which is another way of saying democracy - [...]
Not really. It's more another way of saying that trivial matters like health, exercise, air quality, right to quiet and fairness are often lost behind important topics like whose party leader (not up for election) partied with whom in our current implementation of local government.
And who can make the most noise about driving their smoky old horse box wherever and whenever they like vs. people living with terrible air quality and chronic lung disease.
Bmblbzzz wrote: 16 May 2022, 10:54am
thirdcrank wrote: 16 May 2022, 10:31am In the absence of physical barriers, enforcement is often a problem eg if there's a road closure with exceptions for local residents, any criminal enforcement involves interviewing suspected offenders - under caution with a record - about what exemption - if any - they are using. If a ticket isn't paid, court is the next option.

That's why I think civil enforcement by the traffic authority is the only realistic approach. The most obvious example is a vehicle is identified by ANPR entering the prohibited area and ditto when it leaves. If that's at the other end of the scheme after a short delay, then that's a fixed penalty. With fine tuning for variations. This is all on top of the police not wanting to know about the enforcement of residential schemes.
That's why I think physical barriers are more effective. They do the job without relying on the will for enforcement, and they prevent locals using the shortcuts too. And you don't need to call it anything divisive like LTN or Residents' Zone, just a couple of bollards.
Barriers also stop people e.g. unscrewing their number plates or using false ones, both of which go on and both of which are limitations of ANPR (though do result in your car being impounded in the unlikely event of being pulled over).
thirdcrank
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by thirdcrank »

The way ford then, is to convince the decisionmakers of the errors of their ways. It sounds as though it should be a piece of cake.
ratherbeintobago
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

thirdcrank wrote: 16 May 2022, 12:14pm The way ford then, is to convince the decisionmakers of the errors of their ways. It sounds as though it should be a piece of cake.
Aye. I think a lot of it is the way things are sold, and Chris B and ATE are on the case.

I'm told a local, prominent LTN's case wasn't helped by some of the noisier supporters suggesting that those against it were stupid; we should've learned from Brexit how that would play…
Stevek76
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Stevek76 »

A couple of the most proactive councillors were a little put out by what Chris B said.

I think it's more convincing the politicians than the public. We already know the majority of those in urban areas support these schemes. Antagonizing the opponents usually isn't proactive but little point in trying to win them around either. Key thing is to educate politicians about accurately assessing public opinion, not just listening to the angry voices.
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