Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

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Cugel
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Cugel »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 May 2022, 12:53pm
Jdsk wrote: 21 May 2022, 11:55am
al_yrpal wrote: 21 May 2022, 11:50amThe various crises have clearly shown that we should be nurturing our farmers and industries to be somewhat more self sufficient.
What do you think that we should be doing to avoid fruit rotting because it is unpicked and pigs being killed and discarded because the food chain can't handle them?

Thanks

Jonathan
I dont want another 1.5 million poverty stricken Eastern Europeans descending on us and creating the mother of all housing crises and dragging down wages. It bad enough for our youngsters as it is.

Al

Personally I don't want another several million self-harming fools descending on the ballot boxes to wreak havoc not only to their own lives but the lives of everyone else in the increasingly DisUK. For reasons you may not understand (or want to) I find myself preferring the presence of many "poverty stricken Eastern Europeans" to living with swathes of Daily Hate Mail readers and similar, still eager to harm our national self interest and to vote for a party of incompetent liars who seem to be marching down the road of proto-fascism (aka the Torytrots, with their distain for the rule of law and pursuit of power at any cost).

But perhaps the Welsh will become similarly unenamoured of what's going on in Little England, so that they are persuaded to seek a greater separation from the mad folk to the east? I only hope they will forgive me and my ilk, English immigrants trying to escape the political rot that's set in over the border. I like it here. Folk are generally not xenophobic, uncaring and prejudiced, see? :-)

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
reohn2
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by reohn2 »

Cugel wrote: 21 May 2022, 1:31pm
al_yrpal wrote: 21 May 2022, 12:53pm
Jdsk wrote: 21 May 2022, 11:55am
What do you think that we should be doing to avoid fruit rotting because it is unpicked and pigs being killed and discarded because the food chain can't handle them?

Thanks

Jonathan
I dont want another 1.5 million poverty stricken Eastern Europeans descending on us and creating the mother of all housing crises and dragging down wages. It bad enough for our youngsters as it is.

Al
Personally I don't want another several million self-harming fools descending on the ballot boxes to wreak havoc not only to their own lives but the lives of everyone else in the increasingly DisUK. For reasons you may not understand (or want to) I find myself preferring the presence of many "poverty stricken Eastern Europeans" to living with swathes of Daily Hate Mail readers and similar, still eager to harm our national self interest and to vote for a party of incompetent liars who seem to be marching down the road of proto-fascism (aka the Torytrots, with their distain for the rule of law and pursuit of power at any cost).

But perhaps the Welsh will become similarly unenamoured of what's going on in Little England, so that they are persuaded to seek a greater separation from the mad folk to the east? I only hope they will forgive me and my ilk, English immigrants trying to escape the political rot that's set in over the border. I like it here. Folk are generally not xenophobic, uncaring and prejudiced, see? :-)

Cugel
Well said sir!



Leaving the EU was the worst kind of self harm juussstttt over 50% of the UK public could have done for the country,it's self evident on a daily basis,unless one chooses not to see!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Stevek76
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Stevek76 »

Given their voting preferences those youngsters also clearly didn't know what was good for them

How patronising :roll:
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Jdsk
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Jdsk »

"Rail strikes could bring a 'Summer of Discontent' with empty shelves, economic damage and dry fuel pumps all set to be strained, industry figures have claimed.
"Freight trains could be given priority over passenger services to minimise fuel and food shortages - which could exacerbate the cost-of-living crisis for many, according to the Times."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -1926.html
(because the Times piece is paywalled)

Jonathan
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al_yrpal
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by al_yrpal »

Jdsk wrote: 21 May 2022, 1:01pm
al_yrpal wrote: 21 May 2022, 12:53pm
Jdsk wrote: 21 May 2022, 11:55am
What do you think that we should be doing to avoid fruit rotting because it is unpicked and pigs being killed and discarded because the food chain can't handle them?
I dont want another 1.5 million poverty stricken Eastern Europeans descending on us and creating the mother of all housing crises and dragging down wages.
The evidence of the effect of foreign workers on pay has been publicly available for some time. It's there for anyone to read. If only there were a useful aphorism about opinions and facts.

But my question was about what we should do now. What does "nurturing our farmers" mean? Public subsidy? Higher food prices? Forced labour camps?

Thanks

Jonathan
Yes, call it a subsidy if you like. A kickstarter to build more eco friendly greenhouses to grow fruit and salad vegetables here instead of importing them for a start. Money to develop automated picking machinery. I am not a farmer but I think farmers can advise how to help and expand the rural economy. I believe decent wages will always attract people to work where there are labour shortages. If that means paying more so be it.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Jdsk
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Jdsk »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 May 2022, 8:25pm
Jdsk wrote: 21 May 2022, 1:01pm [But my question was about what we should do now. What does "nurturing our farmers" mean? Public subsidy? Higher food prices? Forced labour camps?
Yes, call it a subsidy if you like. A kickstarter to build more eco friendly greenhouses to grow fruit and salad vegetables here instead of importing them for a start. Money to develop automated picking machinery. I am not a farmer but I think farmers can advise how to help and expand the rural economy. I believe decent wages will always attract people to work where there are labour shortages. If that means paying more so be it.
Thanks.

If it's a public subsidy are you in favour of higher taxation to pay for it? And which type of taxation should be increased?

Jonathan

PS: The farmers' own views on what's urgently needed for both fruit production and pig meat production are available quickly, cheaply and easily.
Jdsk
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Jdsk »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 May 2022, 8:47pm Whatever taxes are appropriate will pay for it and well directed tax relief can be used too. I am not a tax expert.
If you want to increase public subsidy the money has to come from somewhere.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Jdsk »

al_yrpal wrote: 21 May 2022, 8:25pm I believe decent wages will always attract people to work where there are labour shortages.
There is no economic principle that says that supply and demand of labour will keep the same level of production of the same product in the same place.

Production might decrease or stop or move elsewhere. As with soft fruits:

"In general the likely consequences of restricted seasonal worker numbers would be as follows:
- A reduction in the volume of UK Soft Fruit production.
- A reduction in the number of UK Soft Fruit-growing businesses.
- A reduced area of Soft Fruit production in the UK.
- A significant reduction in UK self-sufficiency in a highly perishable product which, both economically and environmentally, should be produced as close to the point of consumption as possible.
- An increase in the volume of Soft Fruit imports into the UK, with a detrimental effect on the balance of payments and the environment (with increased transportation), as well as reducing or removing the opportunity for consumers to buy local produce.
- A reduction in taxation income for the UK Government – Income Tax, Corporation Tax and National Insurance from both employers and employees.
- A reduction in overall market supply, increasing prices to UK consumers (which would be greater in the event of weak Sterling).
- A reduction in the consumption of Soft Fruit by UK consumers as a result of reduced availability and increased price (which could be exacerbated in the event that Soft Fruit becomes the subject of tariffs). Soft Fruit marketing specialists estimate that the loss of a seasonal labour supply could lead to price inflation for strawberries and raspberries in the range 35–50% from current levels."

"The Impact of Brexit on the UK Soft Fruit Industry"
https://www.britishsummerfruits.co.uk/u ... Report.pdf

"One of the UK’s biggest berry farms is moving part of its operations to China because it claims it can’t find enough workers."
https://unitelive.org/brexit-berries-threat/

Jonathan
Stevek76
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Stevek76 »

Jdsk wrote: 21 May 2022, 8:53pm If you want to increase public subsidy the money has to come from somewhere.

Jonathan
No government spend comes from taxes. Of course the inflationary potential of any money creation should always be considered but we'd all be better off if we treated this in line with actual mainstream economics and considered tax and spend elements separately.

There is an area begging for increased taxation, but that applies regardless of any spending plans and that's wealth and real estate.

Most other inflationary pressures are largely covid fallout topped with the trade friction and labour supply throttling of brexit. The former is a global issue but the latter could be solved fairly easily...
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
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al_yrpal
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by al_yrpal »

Shut a few Universities peddling useless courses might be a good source. Plenty of folk are thoroughly fed up with the waste splurged on useless so called degrees that ready students for nothing.
Train nurses the way they used to be trained where they augmented the nursing staff right from the start.
Reduced the number of MPs and reform the Lords gravy train.

Thats a start, I am sure others can think of much more.

Great Sunday Times article today on food and reform of Agriculture. Theres lots of scope to do things better.

Difficulty is (as usual) all the Jonahs, we seem to specialise in them :(

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
reohn2
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote: 22 May 2022, 6:40pm Shut a few Universities peddling useless courses might be a good source. Plenty of folk are thoroughly fed up with the waste splurged on useless so called degrees that ready students for nothing.
Train nurses the way they used to be trained where they augmented the nursing staff right from the start.
Reduced the number of MPs and reform the Lords gravy train.

Thats a start, I am sure others can think of much more.
I can't argue with any of that!
Great Sunday Times article today on food and reform of Agriculture
I confess I've no idea on how to go about that as I'm sure most people wouldn't,but I'm sure farmers would have an inkling.
Theres lots of scope to do things better
Agreed,we could start by closing loopholes in tax laws and making the rich and the multinationals pay their fair share of taxes,we could also clamp down on tax havens where the rich including MPs and former PMs hide their wealth,as well as the contracts for Tory party donors such as the £8 billion wasted on useless PPE contracts,and a futher £32billion wasted on a useless track and trace system overlooked by a business failure Dido Harding who's husband just so happened to be a Tory MP.
Difficulty is (as usual) all the Jonahs, we seem to specialise in them :(

Al
Got anyone in mind?
I have,the Tory party as a whole including the current PM and his cohort of liars and shysters,Nigel Farage for another,and a few others who've led this country to disaster for their own gain!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Mike Sales
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Mike Sales »

al_yrpal wrote: 22 May 2022, 6:40pm
Difficulty is (as usual) all the Jonahs, we seem to specialise in them :(

Al
Few are regurgitated by cetaceans!
Perhaps you mean Jeremiahs?
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Jdsk
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Jdsk »

Exploitation of migrant labour in the seasonal worker visa scheme

"Migrant fruit pickers charged thousands in illegal fees to work on UK farms":
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/s ... n-uk-farms

“We knew something like this was going to happen. Everyone who works on labour rights, modern slavery and trafficking has been saying from day one that there is a massive chance that we're going to have exploitation taking place through the scheme because of its design and the lack of resourcing going into it.”

Jonathan
reohn2
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by reohn2 »

Jdsk wrote: 27 May 2022, 9:11am Exploitation of migrant labour in the seasonal worker visa scheme

"Migrant fruit pickers charged thousands in illegal fees to work on UK farms":
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/s ... n-uk-farms

“We knew something like this was going to happen. Everyone who works on labour rights, modern slavery and trafficking has been saying from day one that there is a massive chance that we're going to have exploitation taking place through the scheme because of its design and the lack of resourcing going into it.”

Jonathan
That's another Brexit benefit,for some.
You gotta just lurv capitalism in it's present UK form.......
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
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Re: Take These (Supply) Chains from My Heart

Post by Jdsk »

reohn2 wrote: 9 May 2022, 10:11am
Jdsk wrote: 9 May 2022, 10:09am
Jdsk wrote: 8 May 2022, 7:06pm "Morrisons returns with fresh McColl's offer as endgame looms":
https://news.sky.com/story/morrisons-re ... s-12608537
"Morrisons triumphs after weekend shootout for control of McColl’s":
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/compani ... ar-AAX3PVM

"Morrisons' commitments to the future of McColl's include retaining all 1,100 stores and 16,000 workers, as well as honouring all of its outstanding pension obligations, the insider added."
Great news for McColls chain and it's staff
al_yrpal wrote: 9 May 2022, 10:36am Best thing that could happen, takeover by a large supermarket business with buying power and financial stability. Works for Tesco and others. Expect some closures and redundancys though down the line as the new owners get to grips with the business.
The Competition and Markets Authority has issued an Initial Enforcement Order:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 220525.pdf

"... the CMA is considering, pursuant to section 22 of the Act, whether it is or may be the case that a relevant merger situation has been created and whether the creation of that situation has resulted or may be expected to result in a substantial lessening of competition in any market or markets in the United Kingdom (UK)... "

and will now investigate further:
https://www.gov.uk/cma-cases/morrisons- ... er-inquiry

Jonathan
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