extension of C2W scheme

Bonzo Banana
Posts: 416
Joined: 5 Feb 2017, 11:58am

Re: extension of C2W scheme

Post by Bonzo Banana »

pete75 wrote: 26 May 2022, 10:07am
Bonzo Banana wrote: 23 May 2022, 3:37pm
Also bicycles with high levels of proprietary parts and not recyclable should be excluded from any scheme. You get so many bikes that are based around extremely high cost parts and repairs or ebikes that get to be beyond economic repair and are only fit for scrap because of their proprietary nature. Any such product should not be allowed in such a scheme.

That would ban Bromptons from the scheme despite the fact they are the most sensible RTW bike for cycle/public transport commuting.
Why would it ban Bromptons, they are full recyclable being mainly steel and use pretty much standard parts across most of the product. I guess there are some proprietary parts but I've seen Bromptons upgraded and modified with different wheels, gearing etc. It doesn't feel like a very proprietary bike and even the new Titanium model isn't too bad, titanium is recyclable and the CF forks while not are not too proprietary and I would think replaceable fairly easily at reasonable cost with steel forks if you wanted that. I had in mind very proprietary and very unrecyclable bikes the Bromptons seems to have a big industry around it supporting it with lots of parts and the fact it has stayed very similar for decades means parts are exceptionally easy to find. Contrast that with a fully proprietary Chinese ebike where it has almost nothing that is standard on it and parts are not available as the manufacturer changes designs frequently or Bosch and their self-bricking batteries and everything electronically handshaking together and forced to use Bosch parts and Bosch service agents at huge cost. I guess you could make a case against the Brompton electric model though. Also I keep seeing failed Brompton electric hub motor wheels on ebay so I also question the reliability and lifespan of that particular model. To be honest I would have a price cap anyway because these sort of schemes should be about providing basic transport to people at reduced cost not buying premium high cost bikes. It would probably have a maximum spend of about £2k and the more you spend the less percentage you get in tax rebate. So it could be 80% at £300, 60% at £500 etc or just a flat rate £200 tax reduction or similar. As I said previously though the real purpose should be about getting very low paid workers or the unemployed who may not be mechanically minded on a solid reliable bike for as little cost as possible.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: extension of C2W scheme

Post by pete75 »

Bonzo Banana wrote: 27 May 2022, 11:36am
pete75 wrote: 26 May 2022, 10:07am
Bonzo Banana wrote: 23 May 2022, 3:37pm
Also bicycles with high levels of proprietary parts and not recyclable should be excluded from any scheme. You get so many bikes that are based around extremely high cost parts and repairs or ebikes that get to be beyond economic repair and are only fit for scrap because of their proprietary nature. Any such product should not be allowed in such a scheme.

That would ban Bromptons from the scheme despite the fact they are the most sensible RTW bike for cycle/public transport commuting.
Why would it ban Bromptons, they are full recyclable being mainly steel and use pretty much standard parts across most of the product. I guess there are some proprietary parts but I've seen Bromptons upgraded and modified with different wheels, gearing etc. It doesn't feel like a very proprietary bike and even the new Titanium model isn't too bad, titanium is recyclable and the CF forks while not are not too proprietary and I would think replaceable fairly easily at reasonable cost with steel forks if you wanted that. I had in mind very proprietary and very unrecyclable bikes the Bromptons seems to have a big industry around it supporting it with lots of parts and the fact it has stayed very similar for decades means parts are exceptionally easy to find. Contrast that with a fully proprietary Chinese ebike where it has almost nothing that is standard on it and parts are not available as the manufacturer changes designs frequently or Bosch and their self-bricking batteries and everything electronically handshaking together and forced to use Bosch parts and Bosch service agents at huge cost. I guess you could make a case against the Brompton electric model though. Also I keep seeing failed Brompton electric hub motor wheels on ebay so I also question the reliability and lifespan of that particular model. To be honest I would have a price cap anyway because these sort of schemes should be about providing basic transport to people at reduced cost not buying premium high cost bikes. It would probably have a maximum spend of about £2k and the more you spend the less percentage you get in tax rebate. So it could be 80% at £300, 60% at £500 etc or just a flat rate £200 tax reduction or similar. As I said previously though the real purpose should be about getting very low paid workers or the unemployed who may not be mechanically minded on a solid reliable bike for as little cost as possible.
One of the reasons Bromptons are so expensive is because they are built almost entirely with proprietary parts. https://discerningcyclist.com/are-bromp ... the-money/

"Why Are Brompton Bikes So Expensive?
Two main reasons: their frames are handmade, and they have an incredibly high resale value, which often transcends their initial purchase price.

Brompton frames are handmade in England. Because Bromptons fold up, their frames also require two hinge axes instead of one. Two hinge axes require extra tube work, lugs and fittings. You’ll be paying for the extra work that goes into their construction, and because they’re handmade in London, you’ll automatically pay more to reward manufacturers with a price that’s in keeping with the capital’s expensive standard of living.

Their components are incredibly unique, too, with around 80% of Brompton components made exclusively for their bikes. "
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
mattsccm
Posts: 5101
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: extension of C2W scheme

Post by mattsccm »

Might I point out one elephant in the room? Most people are lazy sods and wouldn't ride to work if you paid them.There is the biggest obstacle in my opinion.
Bonzo Banana
Posts: 416
Joined: 5 Feb 2017, 11:58am

Re: extension of C2W scheme

Post by Bonzo Banana »

pete75 wrote: 27 May 2022, 3:42pm
Bonzo Banana wrote: 27 May 2022, 11:36am
pete75 wrote: 26 May 2022, 10:07am

That would ban Bromptons from the scheme despite the fact they are the most sensible RTW bike for cycle/public transport commuting.
Why would it ban Bromptons, they are full recyclable being mainly steel and use pretty much standard parts across most of the product. I guess there are some proprietary parts but I've seen Bromptons upgraded and modified with different wheels, gearing etc. It doesn't feel like a very proprietary bike and even the new Titanium model isn't too bad, titanium is recyclable and the CF forks while not are not too proprietary and I would think replaceable fairly easily at reasonable cost with steel forks if you wanted that. I had in mind very proprietary and very unrecyclable bikes the Bromptons seems to have a big industry around it supporting it with lots of parts and the fact it has stayed very similar for decades means parts are exceptionally easy to find. Contrast that with a fully proprietary Chinese ebike where it has almost nothing that is standard on it and parts are not available as the manufacturer changes designs frequently or Bosch and their self-bricking batteries and everything electronically handshaking together and forced to use Bosch parts and Bosch service agents at huge cost. I guess you could make a case against the Brompton electric model though. Also I keep seeing failed Brompton electric hub motor wheels on ebay so I also question the reliability and lifespan of that particular model. To be honest I would have a price cap anyway because these sort of schemes should be about providing basic transport to people at reduced cost not buying premium high cost bikes. It would probably have a maximum spend of about £2k and the more you spend the less percentage you get in tax rebate. So it could be 80% at £300, 60% at £500 etc or just a flat rate £200 tax reduction or similar. As I said previously though the real purpose should be about getting very low paid workers or the unemployed who may not be mechanically minded on a solid reliable bike for as little cost as possible.
One of the reasons Bromptons are so expensive is because they are built almost entirely with proprietary parts. https://discerningcyclist.com/are-bromp ... the-money/

"Why Are Brompton Bikes So Expensive?
Two main reasons: their frames are handmade, and they have an incredibly high resale value, which often transcends their initial purchase price.

Brompton frames are handmade in England. Because Bromptons fold up, their frames also require two hinge axes instead of one. Two hinge axes require extra tube work, lugs and fittings. You’ll be paying for the extra work that goes into their construction, and because they’re handmade in London, you’ll automatically pay more to reward manufacturers with a price that’s in keeping with the capital’s expensive standard of living.

Their components are incredibly unique, too, with around 80% of Brompton components made exclusively for their bikes. "
It's not proprietary in the sense you can't get third party handlebars, seat posts, wheels, tyres, racks, brakes, ebike kits etc. There are a wide range of third party parts available at more competitive prices. I'm sure there are some parts you can only get from Brompton but the same is true of many folding bikes like Dahon where hinge mechanisms are unique to their models but most parts can be obtained easily. In fact Dahon have a history of not supporting their bikes as they change designs frequently. I think its a fair point to say the electric version of the Brompton is proprietary but I personally feel I could buy a normal Brompton secondhand and get everything I need for it on the open market and never have to deal with a Brompton dealer unless I wanted to. It doesn't feel to me a product that has restricted spares access at excessive pricing or that the Brompton will become uneconomic to repair and short life due to high costs, perhaps others think differently.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: extension of C2W scheme

Post by pete75 »

Bonzo Banana wrote: 10 Jun 2022, 1:54pm
pete75 wrote: 27 May 2022, 3:42pm
Bonzo Banana wrote: 27 May 2022, 11:36am

Why would it ban Bromptons, they are full recyclable being mainly steel and use pretty much standard parts across most of the product. I guess there are some proprietary parts but I've seen Bromptons upgraded and modified with different wheels, gearing etc. It doesn't feel like a very proprietary bike and even the new Titanium model isn't too bad, titanium is recyclable and the CF forks while not are not too proprietary and I would think replaceable fairly easily at reasonable cost with steel forks if you wanted that. I had in mind very proprietary and very unrecyclable bikes the Bromptons seems to have a big industry around it supporting it with lots of parts and the fact it has stayed very similar for decades means parts are exceptionally easy to find. Contrast that with a fully proprietary Chinese ebike where it has almost nothing that is standard on it and parts are not available as the manufacturer changes designs frequently or Bosch and their self-bricking batteries and everything electronically handshaking together and forced to use Bosch parts and Bosch service agents at huge cost. I guess you could make a case against the Brompton electric model though. Also I keep seeing failed Brompton electric hub motor wheels on ebay so I also question the reliability and lifespan of that particular model. To be honest I would have a price cap anyway because these sort of schemes should be about providing basic transport to people at reduced cost not buying premium high cost bikes. It would probably have a maximum spend of about £2k and the more you spend the less percentage you get in tax rebate. So it could be 80% at £300, 60% at £500 etc or just a flat rate £200 tax reduction or similar. As I said previously though the real purpose should be about getting very low paid workers or the unemployed who may not be mechanically minded on a solid reliable bike for as little cost as possible.
One of the reasons Bromptons are so expensive is because they are built almost entirely with proprietary parts. https://discerningcyclist.com/are-bromp ... the-money/

"Why Are Brompton Bikes So Expensive?
Two main reasons: their frames are handmade, and they have an incredibly high resale value, which often transcends their initial purchase price.

Brompton frames are handmade in England. Because Bromptons fold up, their frames also require two hinge axes instead of one. Two hinge axes require extra tube work, lugs and fittings. You’ll be paying for the extra work that goes into their construction, and because they’re handmade in London, you’ll automatically pay more to reward manufacturers with a price that’s in keeping with the capital’s expensive standard of living.

Their components are incredibly unique, too, with around 80% of Brompton components made exclusively for their bikes. "
It's not proprietary in the sense you can't get third party handlebars, seat posts, wheels, tyres, racks, brakes, ebike kits etc. There are a wide range of third party parts available at more competitive prices. I'm sure there are some parts you can only get from Brompton but the same is true of many folding bikes like Dahon where hinge mechanisms are unique to their models but most parts can be obtained easily. In fact Dahon have a history of not supporting their bikes as they change designs frequently. I think its a fair point to say the electric version of the Brompton is proprietary but I personally feel I could buy a normal Brompton secondhand and get everything I need for it on the open market and never have to deal with a Brompton dealer unless I wanted to. It doesn't feel to me a product that has restricted spares access at excessive pricing or that the Brompton will become uneconomic to repair and short life due to high costs, perhaps others think differently.
R
Which bikes do have lots of proprietary parts that can't be replaced with non-proprietary parts?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Dingdong
Posts: 966
Joined: 22 Apr 2022, 4:59pm

Re: extension of C2W scheme

Post by Dingdong »

mattsccm wrote: 28 May 2022, 5:43pm Might I point out one elephant in the room? Most people are lazy sods and wouldn't ride to work if you paid them.There is the biggest obstacle in my opinion.
Too true. My old office, I doubt there was less than one in a hundred would even consider cycling to work. Sad to say it, but a recent trip to Berlin only emphasized how far we are behind Europe and the rest of the world on commuting by non petrol driven means.
Bonzo Banana
Posts: 416
Joined: 5 Feb 2017, 11:58am

Re: extension of C2W scheme

Post by Bonzo Banana »

pete75 wrote: 12 Jun 2022, 12:15pm
Bonzo Banana wrote: 10 Jun 2022, 1:54pm
pete75 wrote: 27 May 2022, 3:42pm

One of the reasons Bromptons are so expensive is because they are built almost entirely with proprietary parts. https://discerningcyclist.com/are-bromp ... the-money/

"Why Are Brompton Bikes So Expensive?
Two main reasons: their frames are handmade, and they have an incredibly high resale value, which often transcends their initial purchase price.

Brompton frames are handmade in England. Because Bromptons fold up, their frames also require two hinge axes instead of one. Two hinge axes require extra tube work, lugs and fittings. You’ll be paying for the extra work that goes into their construction, and because they’re handmade in London, you’ll automatically pay more to reward manufacturers with a price that’s in keeping with the capital’s expensive standard of living.

Their components are incredibly unique, too, with around 80% of Brompton components made exclusively for their bikes. "
It's not proprietary in the sense you can't get third party handlebars, seat posts, wheels, tyres, racks, brakes, ebike kits etc. There are a wide range of third party parts available at more competitive prices. I'm sure there are some parts you can only get from Brompton but the same is true of many folding bikes like Dahon where hinge mechanisms are unique to their models but most parts can be obtained easily. In fact Dahon have a history of not supporting their bikes as they change designs frequently. I think its a fair point to say the electric version of the Brompton is proprietary but I personally feel I could buy a normal Brompton secondhand and get everything I need for it on the open market and never have to deal with a Brompton dealer unless I wanted to. It doesn't feel to me a product that has restricted spares access at excessive pricing or that the Brompton will become uneconomic to repair and short life due to high costs, perhaps others think differently.
R
Which bikes do have lots of proprietary parts that can't be replaced with non-proprietary parts?
Dahon and Tern models have a lot of proprietary parts, hinges etc that are hard to find and expensive because they change model designs frequently. You have many big US brands it could be D shaped seat posts, proprietary suspension (headshok etc) which means you always have to buy their replacement parts until no longer available when the bike is scrapped. Many shop bought mid-drive e-bikes have proprietary motor mountings, proprietary battery handshaking and proprietary bushings and other parts and don't provide spares directly to the general public. Lots of higher end bikes have a limited lifespan. Proprietary parts are typically found on higher end products because making proprietary parts is more expensive in itself anyway. You may buy a Giant Contend with the Claris groupset and that bike has no proprietary parts at all but then you buy a high end Giant road bike and you then have lots of proprietary components, seat post, electronic gears, special headset and handlebars etc. If the Giant Contend rear derailleur failed you could fit another Claris or perhaps another Shimano derailleur that was cable pull ratio compatible or maybe a third party derailleur like a Microshift. Probably 50 years in the future you would still find something to replace a faulty or worn out component.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: extension of C2W scheme

Post by pete75 »

Bonzo Banana wrote: 10 Jun 2022, 1:54pm



You may buy a Giant Contend with the Claris groupset and that bike has no proprietary parts at all but then you buy a high end Giant road bike and you then have lots of proprietary components, seat post, electronic gears, special headset and handlebars etc. If the Giant Contend rear derailleur failed you could fit another Claris or perhaps another Shimano derailleur that was cable pull ratio compatible or maybe a third party derailleur like a Microshift. Probably 50 years in the future you would still find something to replace a faulty or worn out component.
The top level Giant road bikes use Sram or Shimano components. No Campag but then they are made in China.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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