British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

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sussex cyclist
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by sussex cyclist »

thelawnet wrote: 4 Jun 2022, 9:02am This is not going anywhere, this picture of yesterday's Thunder crit, which last year abolished the female and male categories in favour of Thunder and Lightning, which are basically male + anyone non binary or trans who feels they physically compete with male, and female + anyone non binary or trans who feels they physically compete with female.

The rather telling podium for the lightning category consists of Bridges, Lily Chant (until recently Joseph Chant), and in third place Jo Smith, holding her baby.

FUWdzjxXsAAaxk7.jpeg
Two tweets which encapsulate the debate:

"They're women. Sit down."

"They're men. Wake up."
thelawnet
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by thelawnet »

Yes, just looking through twitter apparently the B class had the same issue just in a different order.
FUZOboEUAAAc3v4 (1).jpeg
They boasted of equal prizes, but it doesn't seem very equal to me
FUZy-vQX0AEsN27.jpeg
The 'they're women' claim doesn't stand up, because you don't even have to claim to be a woman - 'non-binary' is sufficient.
Dingdong
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by Dingdong »

British Cycling, balls up? That's hardly a surprise, they've been successfully doing that for 40 odd years :lol:
Jdsk
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by Jdsk »

Changes to UCI rules on eligibility:

"Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 nmol/L) to 2.5 nmol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population."
https://www.uci.org/pressrelease/uci-ma ... ytpsYw5e6p

And the Guardian's explainer, including Bridges v Kenny L:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... r-athletes

Jonathan
Tangled Metal
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by Tangled Metal »

What exactly is the issue? Testosterone levels or the development benefits caused by puberty? Testosterone levels can be managed by if the latter then what can be done to negate any potentially unfair advantage?

I have no idea of the science behind it but aiui not even the sporting authorities and experts fully understand it. I read something about the testosterone levels being an easy fudge based on a misunderstanding of the science and issues. Not exactly factually supported solution but something to show they're being fair. It seems to me that they're looking at one thing not the whole thing.

Kind of like if they let you take muscle building drugs for power events but only so long as your biceps don't get above a certain circumference. Could be very, very wrong though.
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by Jdsk »

The issue is trying to find a fair solution to a complex problem with multiple actors. As you have identified.

The underlying science can only ever inform that, and its ability to inform is improving, as usual.

But fairness also involves values.

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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by Jdsk »

Tangled Metal wrote: 17 Jun 2022, 12:11pmIt seems to me that they're looking at one thing not the whole thing.
What do you think that they're missing?

Thanks

Jonathan
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by Tangled Metal »

I have no idea just a feeling I guess. My money is on them ignoring that there's not been enough research into the topic to fully inform the decision makers. It seems that some unfairness is accepted in sport but not others. Post puberty mtf women both receive unfairness and effectively give it I guess.

Having said that I knew a biological woman who represented GB at a national team level who had a natural physique which quite possibly mean some in the men's team would be disadvantaged by her! All I can say is with her right arm I am glad of my face shield when I trained against her.

What are your personal views JDSK? I'm not sure I know what your opinion is. You're a font of knowledge on research topics but I'm curious as to the views of the individual.
Jdsk
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by Jdsk »

I don't have a personal view with a solution. I have the possible advantage of familiarity with the biochemistry and the endocrinology and the genetics and intersex syndromes, but as above the science can't give an answer.

I do have a personal view on how the decisions should be made: due process by the governing bodies, review of the science as it emerges, encouragement of submissions from the many actors, acceptance that change will happen, and everything done out in the open.

Jonathan
thelawnet
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by thelawnet »

There is a presumption that science has no agenda, which is rarely true. I believe that several of the people who have appointed themselves experts and indeed gone on to study at degree level and beyond are transgender.

There is Blair Hamilton who competes in women's sport and also researching the same

https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/4/ ... women-team

https://twitter.com/BlairH_PhD

Another is Joanna Harper, who wrote an extremely poor quality study study which purported to show based on performance measured with a several decade gap based on a handful of athletes, that there was no fairness issue

https://www.science.org/content/article ... -including

It is indeed hard to control all the variables and come up with good scientific answers, but I suppose this rather depends on whether you believe that there is some sort of right to change sex and compete in elite sport after doing so, ignoring the indelible effects of male puberty - some of us see no credibility in the underlying claim about having effected a change of gender, let alone a reversal of sexual dimorphism, and as such regard to argument of a right to compete in the new gender as ludicrous.

It is a matter of fact that scientists in sport have set out to deceive the public on many occasions, further to political goals, as was the case when the IOC and IAAF held several meetings and decided to misappropriate the term 'hyperandrogenism', which previously applied to women suffering hirsutism etc. as a result of PCOS, ovarian tumours, etc., to apply it to people who had testicular DSDs, who were competing in the female category. This political act, whether motivated by protecting the privacy of the athletes, or the credibility of the sport, or something else, was extremely successful as many swore blind, based on the misuse of 'hyperandrogenism' and the decision to further deceive and lie to the public by including conditions such as luteoma of pregnancy in their banned list, that these were women with overactive ovaries or similar, not just a relatively minor steroid synthesis malfunction from testicular testosterone.

It seems to me that in the present case it's essentially a kneejerk response to kick things down the line a bit. It is self-evident to most of humanity that these people should not be competing in women's sport, but there are armies of well-funded charities and lawyers who would love to take this to court, where some sort of metaphysics has developed whereby men can become women, compete against women, and it is then incumbent on those who doubt some part of this alleged transformation to prove their case, rather than vice versa.
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by Jdsk »

So how should the decisions on eligibility be made?

Are the answers all so "self-evident" that one point of view should prevail without others being heard?

Thanks

Jonathan
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by sussex cyclist »

thelawnet wrote: 18 Jun 2022, 3:34pm ...some sort of metaphysics has developed whereby men can become women, compete against women, and it is then incumbent on those who doubt some part of this alleged transformation to prove their case, rather than vice versa.
Well put.
Jdsk
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 17 Jun 2022, 12:53pmI do have a personal view on how the decisions should be made: due process by the governing bodies, review of the science as it emerges, encouragement of submissions from the many actors, acceptance that change will happen, and everything done out in the open.
New eligibility criteria for competitive swimming:
https://resources.fina.org/fina/documen ... FINAL-.pdf

Jonathan
thelawnet
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by thelawnet »

Jdsk wrote: 19 Jun 2022, 9:09pm
Jdsk wrote: 17 Jun 2022, 12:53pmI do have a personal view on how the decisions should be made: due process by the governing bodies, review of the science as it emerges, encouragement of submissions from the many actors, acceptance that change will happen, and everything done out in the open.
New eligibility criteria for competitive swimming:
https://resources.fina.org/fina/documen ... FINAL-.pdf

Jonathan
Indeed. By decisive international vote banning all of the male-to-female athletes we see today from sport (they can still compete if they transitioned before puberty, but it seems to me that these untested drugs are likely to wreck any chance of that).
ChrisP100
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Re: British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

Post by ChrisP100 »

The OED definition of gender:

"Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female".

A lot to unpack there, but essentially the line should be drawn at biological identity with the exception of individuals born male who have gender reassignment therapy before puberty.
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