Was I in the wrong?

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awavey
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by awavey »

eileithyia wrote: 22 Jun 2022, 10:11pm
Mick F wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 2:54pm Generally, any vehicle turning from a major road into a minor road, MUST give way to any traffic going straight on irrespective of direction.

Traffic being pedestrians, cyclists, horses.
Am not reading through 4 pages and have only read first page... but the above is the new guidance in the Highway Code that was thoroughly discussed by oh so many people on social media.. certainly a professional driver such as a bus driver should have been updated on the new rules / guidance by their training officers.
Regardless of who is right or wrong (personally on the new guidelines the bus driver) I still wouldn't cross such a junction without double checking that no one is turning in.... keeping safe is my priority and not being run into by several tonnes of metal is something I attempt to avoid.
but I wonder if theres more confusion here because whilst Ive not been to Notts since pre covid times, that road layout has so fundamentally changed there by the looks of it, I mean its not just theyve added some cycle lanes in, theres traffic now heading both ways on that road, and a turn into iirc the bit by the railway station is bus/cycle only which never used to be from that direction. So there should be like gigantic new road layout signs everywhere until people get really used to it as Im sure the bus driver has spent years driving around Nottingham, and yet this is a completely new experience for them trying to navigate the road, and add in navigate it with cyclists. It does seem a fairly obvious conflict point theyve created.

plus as I remember it that junction used to be used heavily by pedestrians, whats keeping them out from just gathering in the bike lanes waiting to cross ?
Pete Owens
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Pete Owens »

Chris56 wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 2:19pm Junction.png

Nothing on streetview but here is a diagram. Blue path = path of bus, red line = my path
Green boxes = location of traffic lights that were on green

For me, if I had been travelling in the opposite direction it would have been clear-cut he having to give way to me but because we were in the same direction its a bit unclear. Cycle path was for travelling in both directions
OK so the rules are that you now have priority in this situation.

However, what you are really interested in is avoiding getting squished. Junction arrangements like that that allow two streams of traffic to cross simultaneously through a junction are so obviously dangerous that I would definitely recommend that you avoid riding on that cycleway and keep to the road. The highway engineers simply would not put in place such a design if the cycleway was carrying motor traffic.

If you are approaching a signal controlled junction with a green light showing then you expect all other traffic to be held on red with the sole exception of oncoming traffic which you can easily spot because it is in front of you. However much you think the right turning drivers ought to give way (which the highway code says they should) you are relying on them spotting you approaching the junction from behind them on the other side of the road hidden behind vehicles travelling in the opposite direction. How confident are you of their observation skills?
thirdcrank
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by thirdcrank »

Chris56 wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 1:46pm Had an incident this morning. Road layout is a bit confusing but will explain best I can.

Heading along Canal Street, Nottingham where there is a 2-laned designsated cycle path running between the road an pavement (not shared).

The main road was to my left.

Up ahead was a junction with a set of traffic lights that were on green. I was proceeding straight ahead and there was a bus parallel with me that was wanting to turn right. Their right turn would have crossed my path.

We went through the green lights at about the same time
and, as the bus was turning right the driver leant out of the window saying "you should have given way there you stupid boy" (given that I am 40 years old, degree-educated and am Head of a Science Faculty this did trigger me a little and he received some unpleasant 4-letter words from me!).

In the absense of any give-way signs, am I right in thinking that I still had right of way or should I have given way?
M(My bold)
Without a clear view of the whole junction it's hard to be certain but you may have misunderstood the significance of the lights, which I suspect may be for a pedestrian (+cyclists?) crossing across the main carriageway. If I'm correct, then the signal you would have seen to your immediate left would have been the secondary signal for the approach to the crossing rather than a primary signal for you. ie that signal does not apply to the cycle route. So while you don't have to stop when it's at red, it gives yo no priority at green. Even if I'm wrong, and the lights also apply to the cycle route, then I think they probably only protect pedestrians crossing.

If I'm right, then the junction you were crossing is a minor road T junction not light-controlled, although traffic on the main road being stopped by the crossing would give opportunities for pedestrians to cross the minor road

This means you are depending on the HC rules for any priority over the bus.
Chris56
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Chris56 »

Awavey - the answer to your last point is "nothing". Its clear now that the junction is unfinished. There is a lot of pedestrian traffic going between the station and the (now demolished) Broadmarsh. It looks like some additional lights are being installed to hold cyclists back when traffic is turning from Carrington Street onto Canal Street. There is a similar setup where Castle Boulevard meets Castle Marina and it works reasonably well but that area doesn't have the Pedestrian traffic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA2Ua4IauiM

The council really have invested in cycle infrastructure in the city but I can't help but feel that very little investment was put into the planning stage.

Pete - fully take on board what you are saying and I would never put myself in harms way to prove a point. I have noticed that more cyclists are using the road rather than the cycle path. Many users have questioned why it was not built on the opposite side of the road where there are very few side-streets
Chris56
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Chris56 »

thirdcrank wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 9:17am
Without a clear view of the whole junction it's hard to be certain but you may have misunderstood the significance of the lights, which I suspect may be for a pedestrian (+cyclists?) crossing across the main carriageway. If I'm correct, then the signal you would have seen to your immediate left would have been the secondary signal for the approach to the crossing rather than a primary signal for you. ie that signal does not apply to the cycle route. So while you don't have to stop when it's at red, it gives yo no priority at green. Even if I'm wrong, and the lights also apply to the cycle route, then I think they probably only protect pedestrians crossing.

If I'm right, then the junction you were crossing is a minor road T junction not light-controlled, although traffic on the main road being stopped by the crossing would give opportunities for pedestrians to cross the minor road

This means you are depending on the HC rules for any priority over the bus.
The minor road (Carrinton Street) is also light-controlled but I do see your point about the lights not actually being for the cycle lane. But this then raises the point that ,in its current unfinished state, the council have created a Junction/Crossing that is unsafe for cyclists.

I will continue to use this crossing but with more caution - yesterday I made a point to make eye-contact with the bus coming the other way and use a hand signal to show my intensions of crossing. Zero abuse and no use of horn!
thirdcrank
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by thirdcrank »

Chris56 wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 9:33am ....
The minor road (Carrinton Street) is also light-controlled but I do see your point about the lights not actually being for the cycle lane. But this then raises the point that ,in its current unfinished state, the council have created a Junction/Crossing that is unsafe for cyclists.

I will continue to use this crossing but with more caution - yesterday I made a point to make eye-contact with the bus coming the other way and use a hand signal to show my intensions of crossing. Zero abuse and no use of horn!
(My bold)
Hole in one! I think I said "same old" higher up and that is what I meant.

Highwaymen tend to be quite good at cycle routes till they come to difficult bits like junctions, including private entrances. They might as well have got a Kenny Everett tribute act to make an Augustus Windsock video
Pete Owens
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Pete Owens »

thirdcrank wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 9:46am Highwaymen tend to be quite good at cycle routes till they come to difficult bits like junctions, including private entrances.
And since most crashes occur at junctions that is rather a major failing. It is not for want of trying - it has been known for a very long time that segregation increases the risk of collisions at junctions. It is basically an intactable problem is the diagram axel_knutt posted earlier makes clear:
Image
Anyone can see at a glance (even the most diehard apologists for segregation) that the lane markings on the left would be absurdly dangerous - and highway engineers simply don't ever implement such a design for motors. Yet so determined they are to clear us off the roads they are quite happy to subject us to the lane markings on the right - which has exactly the same conflict designed in. And the situation is even worse (as is the case in Nottingham) for two way cycle lanes, when the approaching cyclists are on the other side of the road obscured behind oncomig traffic.

For priority junctions there is simply no way round this - though you can mitigate the problem to some extent by only using with-flow cycleways rather than bi-directional ones - thus increasing the collision risk by a factor of 3 rather than a factor of 10.

At signal controlled junctions the problem can be addressed by adding separate stages for the cycleway approaches. Again if those approaches carried motior vehicles, rather than mere cyclists, then that would be done without fail. That does come at the cost of vastly reduced capacity (what the highway engineers really care about) and inconvenience for all users including cyclists. The more signal stages in the cycle the longer you have to wait for the next green light. Maybe they are intending to do this in Nottingham, but if that is the case then they should not be starting to operate any of the lights on the junction. No one should be seeing a green light unless conflicting traffic is held at red.
Stevek76
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Stevek76 »

Separate signal stages is being done. Your bolding missed the part about "in its current unfinished state".

Quite why the council have made such a mess of the works here is another matter. Similarly why, given the significant amount of road space reallocation that's happened here (this used to be a 4 lane traffic sewer by the looks of streetview), they've opted for bi-di rather than with direction tracks is also a useful question. At least they seem to have moved to a more conventional and far longer lasting red coloured bitumen rather than the lurid green paint nottingham seems to have previously used in places.

However as usual it needs to be considered that cycling infrastructure is not intended for fast and confident road cyclists, it's there for the vast majority of people who currently do not cycle and, despite what die hard vehicularists seem to think, no amount training or confidence building is going to make those people get on bikes. Quality infrastructure comprised of filtered side streets and segregated priority provision on main roads is the only thing known to produce significant cycling mode shares.
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Cowsham
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Cowsham »

I take it the cycle lanes ( two directions ) are both on the right hand side of the main road ? Are there direction arrows ie for your direction do do follow the left lane? Do the lights on the right hand side of the cycle lane apply to cycles? Are the main road traffic lights out or is it just the angle of your video that makes them look out?
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mjr
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by mjr »

Pete Owens wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 12:39pm It is basically an intactable problem is the diagram axel_knutt posted earlier makes clear:
Image
Intractable. Except for traffic lights that allow the cycleway to go while the conflicting carriageway lane is stopped, as mentioned several times before.
For priority junctions there is simply no way round this - though you can mitigate the problem to some extent by only using with-flow cycleways rather than bi-directional ones - thus increasing the collision risk by a factor of 3 rather than a factor of 10.
Ah, still using 30+-year-old data to condemn designs which weren't even thought of then?
At signal controlled junctions the problem can be addressed by adding separate stages for the cycleway approaches. Again if those approaches carried motior vehicles, rather than mere cyclists, then that would be done without fail. [...]
You can post that as many times as you want, but it doesn't make it true. UK highways designers routinely expect motorists turning right at a green light to give way to conflicting traffic coming from the opposite direction, such as here, here and here.
No one should be seeing a green light unless conflicting traffic is held at red.
Maybe not, especially if the UK is unwilling to "throw the book at" drivers who fail to do so.

At the very least, there could be give-way symbols at such junctions to remind motorists they must give way when turning.
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Pete Owens
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Pete Owens »

Oh dear the "wrong type of cyclist" trope by which anti-cyclist traffic engineers use to deflect criticisms of their work from ANY cyclist. Divide and rule by the use of derogatory adjectives.
Stevek76 wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 1:55pm However as usual it needs to be considered that cycling infrastructure is not intended for fast and confident road cyclists,
And most certainly any slow, cautious or competant cyclists such as myself. So why not drop the adjectives
As you correctly point out - cycling infrastructure is not intended for the benefit of .... "cyclists".
it's there for the vast majority of people who currently do not cycle
The word you are looking for here is "motorists"
and, despite what die hard vehicularists seem to think,
Heaven forbid that any mere cyclist should get ideas above their station and consider their bicycle is a vehicle rather than a toy.
Rob87
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Rob87 »

Looking at your diagram I find it odd that a cycle path is on the right hand side of the road, unless it's a one way sysyem?
Anyhow, the bus driver should really have given way to you out of common sense above any highway code rules/regs. You can do alot of damage eith a bus, I should know I used to drive them!.
As for contacting the bus company, a bit below the belt as while he may be a complete phallus cranium his family may not be. It's so easy to cost people there jobs these days and put a family under hard ship.
If the signage isn't clear or outright none existant then the council is the correct route.
I was told when getting my motorcycle licence that if a car etc pulls out on you, shrug ya shoulders and laugh. She it happens.
Chris56
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Chris56 »

Hi Rob, the 2-way cycle track on one side of the road is the latest craze by Nottingham City Council. Personally I prefer the single lanes with advance stop lines but I appreciate that some riders may find sharing busy roads with traffic intimidating. They seem to think that by segregating cyclists its much safer for them, which it is until you reach a junction (as mentioned previously)

With reporting the incident to the Bus company it was purely due to the driver's attitude. To lean out of the window and call me a "stupid boy" when he had barely started the turn was below the belt. I would never want to put an innoocent family through hardship, especially at the moment and hope the driver doesn't get the sack, but his actions really hurt me (I am Autistic and can suffer from low self-esteem). I've made my fair share mistakes when riding/driving but will always own up/apologise.
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Cowsham
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Cowsham »

There's a line across your path on your side of the cycle lane ( not only a line but also the end of the footpath/cycle as marked out by the kerb stones ) -- you should have stopped there ( at the line ) and waited on the bus crossing into the side road.

I take it those lights on the cycle path are to tell you to stop -- what colour were they when you approached or were they there when the incident happened?

I agree the bus driver was wrong to call you names. I also agree the layout and traffic furniture needs improved but until that happens you'll just have to be more careful / understanding of the inadequate planning.
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mjr
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by mjr »

Rob87 wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 9:01pm As for contacting the bus company, a bit below the belt as while he may be a complete phallus cranium his family may not be. It's so easy to cost people there jobs these days and put a family under hard ship.
The driver's actions will have cost him his job, not the complainer. Also, if that's how he drives, another complaint won't be far away, and better he loses the bus before he hurts someone.
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