War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 8:09pm
Jdsk wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 12:50pm
Jdsk wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 11:52am
And the next step...

"Invitation letter by President Charles Michel to the members of the European Council ahead of their meeting on 23 and 24 June 2022":
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pres ... june-2022/
includes:

"Now is the time to acknowledge that the future of Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia lies within the EU. I will invite you to grant candidate status to Ukraine and Moldova. In parallel, we will continue to provide Ukraine with strong humanitarian, military, economic and financial support."
And the European Parliament:
"With 529 votes to 45 and 14 abstentions, Parliament adopted on Thursday a resolution calling on the Heads of State or Government -who hold their summit today and tomorrow - to grant EU candidate status to Ukraine and the Republic of Moldova “without delay”."
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/ ... eps-demand
And the European Council:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pres ... june-2022/
And the responses from the Chair of the parliament, the Prime Minister, and the President:
https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/of ... ya-2-76029
concludes:

Today Ukraine is fighting for its freedom. And this war began just when Ukraine declared its right to freedom. To its choice of its future. We saw it in the European Union. No matter how someone convinced us that no one wanted us there and a happy tomorrow for Ukraine was possible in a completely different union called Customs. And no matter how surprised they were that Ukrainians prefered freedom over cheap gas. We have chosen the path.
The path determined by our people, not someone's power. Chosen by Maidan Nezalezhnosti, not Red Square. The path the Revolution on Granite fought for in 1990, the Orange Revolution stood on barricades for in 2004 and the Heavenly Hundred gave lives for during the Revolution of Dignity in 2014. It was then that the voice of Ukraine sounded loudest. It was there that we firmly chose our path. That is why the Russian Federation appeared on it, annexing Crimea, occupying part of Donbas and later starting a full-scale war against the whole of Ukraine. And that is why this decision of the EU is so important, motivates us and shows: all this is needed not only by us. Having declared our desire to go to the EU, today we finally heard clearly: we are waiting for you! You are welcome! We want to see you as a full member of our family.
Hence, all this was not in vain. And our struggle continues not in vain. Ukraine has truly united. Ukraine is truly fighting. Ukraine will definitely win. Truly!
Ukraine. Europe. World. Humanity.


Jonathan
Stradageek
Posts: 1657
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Stradageek »

mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 11:00am What point is being made? Should cries of "hypocrisy!!" change our dealings in an international crisis. Let's see:

"You know, that Blair fella was just as bad: perhaps we should just let the Russians do what they want? Hmm?"
Apologies Mattheus, I see the confusion. I was attempting to point out that both the USA ( in Iraq), and Russia (in Ukraine), have invaded illegally and purely for their own ends a country posing no threat to their hegemony. In both cases they have used the preemptive strike rationale based on completely 'fake' news.

I am a fierce opponent of both wars!
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by mattheus »

Stradageek wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 4:15pm
mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 11:00am What point is being made? Should cries of "hypocrisy!!" change our dealings in an international crisis. Let's see:

"You know, that Blair fella was just as bad: perhaps we should just let the Russians do what they want? Hmm?"
Apologies Mattheus, I see the confusion. I was attempting to point out that both the USA ( in Iraq), and Russia (in Ukraine), have invaded illegally and purely for their own ends a country posing no threat to their hegemony. In both cases they have used the preemptive strike rationale based on completely 'fake' news.

I am a fierce opponent of both wars!
Glad to hear it! And I respect your view here.

But (with respect) I don't see the value in your post, on this thread, in this context. Are we discussing Iraq? Nothing we say here will wind back THAT clock, sadly - Blair and Bush are happy millionaires now.

I can only see your post - on this thread, in 2022 - as mitigating the misdeeds of Putin.
Stradageek
Posts: 1657
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Stradageek »

mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 4:29pm But (with respect) I don't see the value in your post, on this thread, in this context. Are we discussing Iraq? Nothing we say here will wind back THAT clock, sadly - Blair and Bush are happy millionaires now.

I can only see your post - on this thread, in 2022 - as mitigating the misdeeds of Putin.
I am trying to emphasise that Putin=bad, Rest of the World=good is simplistic and misleading. Putin is unequivocally mad, bad and wrong but how we respond to 'War on our Doorstep' must take account of history. America's flouting of UN charters and 'Preemptive Strike' arguments in Iraq must have been music to the ears of an hubristic dictator like Putin.

If we ignore US hegemony (in most of the world), China (mostly in Asia) and Russia (currently mostly in Ukraine and Belarus) will assume that we will ignore theirs too.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by pete75 »

al_yrpal wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 11:01am
pete75 wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 10:04am
You're friends with one of those dastardly foreigners Al? The mind boggles.
I am friends with lots of foreigners Pete, you have me completely wrong.

You are the one with a problem, its like a sore thumb :lol:

Al
I suspect the truth is that you know lots of foreigners - not quite the same as what you claim.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 11537
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
Contact:

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by al_yrpal »

The truth is we corresponded frequently, visit and stay with each other and like and respect each other. You have a problem...

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by pete75 »

al_yrpal wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 8:26pm The truth is we corresponded frequently, visit and stay with each other and like and respect each other. You have a problem...

Al
Thanks for the compliment. I think I would have a problem if the likes of yourself didn't think I had one.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by mattheus »

Stradageek wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 5:06pm
mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 4:29pm But (with respect) I don't see the value in your post, on this thread, in this context. Are we discussing Iraq? Nothing we say here will wind back THAT clock, sadly - Blair and Bush are happy millionaires now.

I can only see your post - on this thread, in 2022 - as mitigating the misdeeds of Putin.
I am trying to emphasise that Putin=bad, Rest of the World=good is simplistic and misleading. Putin is unequivocally mad, bad and wrong but how we respond to 'War on our Doorstep' must take account of history. America's flouting of UN charters and 'Preemptive Strike' arguments in Iraq must have been music to the ears of an hubristic dictator like Putin.

If we ignore US hegemony (in most of the world), China (mostly in Asia) and Russia (currently mostly in Ukraine and Belarus) will assume that we will ignore theirs too.
So how should we best address that situation? How should that influence our response to the War?
Stradageek
Posts: 1657
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Stradageek »

mattheus wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 7:54am So how should we best address that situation? How should that influence our response to the War?
I plan to start by exposing the agendas of the hegemonic powers to as many people as possible, even writing on a cycle forum may help :D

If we can shame the 'good guys' maybe the 'bad guys' will feel less free to follow suit - a small and forlorn hope I know, but what is life without hope :(

Meanwhile we maintain pressure on everyone supporting Ukraine to keep on doing so. Maybe even keeping a thread on the 'War in Ukraine' running is doing a little bit to stop 'war fatigue' creeping in :wink:
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 16 May 2022, 8:28pm
Jdsk wrote: 25 Apr 2022, 6:19pm Sweden and Finland have responded by applying to join NATO:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... plications
"Turkey says it will not approve Sweden and Finland joining Nato":
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... kraine-war

I'd expect that to be manageable...
And it's just been managed:

Screenshot 2022-06-28 at 20.27.44.png
https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/statu ... 8347058176

Jonathan
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Psamathe »

Well one person has been very clear abut what they could/would do (I thought it was a spoof when I 1st read it but looks genuine if staggering)
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jun/30/bernie-ecclestone-id-take-a-bullet-for-putin-formula-one-good-morning-britain-interview wrote:Bernie Ecclestone: I’d take a bullet for ‘first-class person’ Putin
...
Asked on ITV’s Good Morning Britain if he [Ecclestone ] still regards Putin as a friend, the 91-year-old billionaire said: “I’d still take a bullet for him. I’d rather it didn’t hurt, but if it does I’d still take a bullet, because he’s a first-class person. What he’s doing is something that he believed was the right thing he was doing for Russia.”
Ian
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by mattheus »

Psamathe wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 8:01pm Well one person has been very clear abut what they could/would do (I thought it was a spoof when I 1st read it but looks genuine if staggering)
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jun/30/bernie-ecclestone-id-take-a-bullet-for-putin-formula-one-good-morning-britain-interview wrote:Bernie Ecclestone: I’d take a bullet for ‘first-class person’ Putin
...
Asked on ITV’s Good Morning Britain if he [Ecclestone ] still regards Putin as a friend, the 91-year-old billionaire said: “I’d still take a bullet for him. I’d rather it didn’t hurt, but if it does I’d still take a bullet, because he’s a first-class person. What he’s doing is something that he believed was the right thing he was doing for Russia.”
Ian
Ecclestone is a different kind of human to me (and I suspect to thee!). He lives in a totally different world - oligarchs are his playmates.

I'm not honestly all that surprised by the interview. I watched it yesterday (no idea why), and he comes across as calm and rational. The things he says make a kind of sense, IF you see them from his rather unique world viewpoint ...

It's quite an informative interview, in particular on the Nelson Piquet stuff - Eccles is powerful enough that he can say exactly what he thinks. We may not LIKE what he thinks and says, but it's a useful insight into the world of these people that run our planet!
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Carlton green »

mattheus wrote: 1 Jul 2022, 9:33am
Psamathe wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 8:01pm Well one person has been very clear abut what they could/would do (I thought it was a spoof when I 1st read it but looks genuine if staggering)
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jun/30/bernie-ecclestone-id-take-a-bullet-for-putin-formula-one-good-morning-britain-interview wrote:Bernie Ecclestone: I’d take a bullet for ‘first-class person’ Putin
...
Asked on ITV’s Good Morning Britain if he [Ecclestone ] still regards Putin as a friend, the 91-year-old billionaire said: “I’d still take a bullet for him. I’d rather it didn’t hurt, but if it does I’d still take a bullet, because he’s a first-class person. What he’s doing is something that he believed was the right thing he was doing for Russia.”
Ian
Ecclestone is a different kind of human to me (and I suspect to thee!). He lives in a totally different world - oligarchs are his playmates.

I'm not honestly all that surprised by the interview. I watched it yesterday (no idea why), and he comes across as calm and rational. The things he says make a kind of sense, IF you see them from his rather unique world viewpoint ...

It's quite an informative interview, in particular on the Nelson Piquet stuff - Eccles is powerful enough that he can say exactly what he thinks. We may not LIKE what he thinks and says, but it's a useful insight into the world of these people that run our planet!
Ecclestone’s stance is interesting and yes he does live in a different world than the rest of us. From his perspective he’s got something to gain from supporting Putin and because we’re all very tolerant and civilised he’s not going to suffer for his pro Putin comments. We’re pretty stupid really and the Russians aren’t.

It’s about time that NATO supplied the Ukrainians with some better artillery to fire much further into enemy held territory. We’re sitting on our hands and letting Russia win. The day Ukraine falls won’t be the end of things but rather just the beginning of worse to follow (for the rest of Europe). China must be observing all of this with interest too …
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Psamathe »

Carlton green wrote: 1 Jul 2022, 4:27pm ...
It’s about time that NATO supplied the Ukrainians with some better artillery to fire much further into enemy held territory. We’re sitting on our hands and letting Russia win. …
Is that something within NATO's remit? I don't know their rules/constitution (or whatever they call it) but I thought it was all about defence of member countries and that aid to Ukraine would involve foreign policy and would be down to individual NATO member states. No reason (I know of) why NATO member states can't provide weapons conforming to NATO standards (e.g. with the longer range).

Ian
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5430
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: War on Our Doorstep: How do we respond?

Post by Cugel »

Carlton green wrote: 1 Jul 2022, 4:27pm (snip)

It’s about time that NATO supplied the Ukrainians with some better artillery to fire much further into enemy held territory. We’re sitting on our hands and letting Russia win.

(snip)
On the other hand .... how will be deal with the nuclear winter?

Myself, I have no opinion on this matter, just a lot of feelings (mostly of fear & loathing). I have no opinion because I haven't the means to form one of any value, worth, cogency or use. The thing is, neither has anyone else here, despite all our feelings on the matter.

Of course I may be wrong; and would love to see someone post the obvious and irrefutable answer.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Post Reply