Over tightened spokes

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531colin
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by 531colin »

Mr Tom wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 2:12pm I checked on my Spa built back wheel which has Sapim strong on the drive side and some were up to 30 on the metre, so maybe it is out of adjustment.

The front which are Sapim Race were right at the top of the scale at 25 / 167kgf
I've been retired 10 years, and before that arthritis stopped me building numbers of wheels, but thats crackers.
8/9/10 speed 135mm OLN wheels are about 120kgf driveside, 80 nds.....thats 25 on the gauge for driveside 2mm spokes, and 19 nds with 1.8mm.
fronts want to be 100kgf both sides which is 21 on the gauge for 1.8mm.....bit of a difference for disc of course.

If you bought your gauge from Spa please send it back and get them to check it out.
rogerzilla
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by rogerzilla »

11spd 130mm wheels need an unsafely high RH spoke tension, or the LH is too slack (I shoot for about 80 on the LHS). The tension ratio is about 45%. Shimano really have pushed it too far.
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531colin
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by 531colin »

rogerzilla wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 6:36pm 11spd 130mm wheels need an unsafely high RH spoke tension, or the LH is too slack (I shoot for about 80 on the LHS). The tension ratio is about 45%. Shimano really have pushed it too far.
Rims with offset spoke holes work a bit better for those wheels.
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Mr Tom
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by Mr Tom »

531colin wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 3:14pm
Mr Tom wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 2:12pm I checked on my Spa built back wheel which has Sapim strong on the drive side and some were up to 30 on the metre, so maybe it is out of adjustment.

The front which are Sapim Race were right at the top of the scale at 25 / 167kgf
I've been retired 10 years, and before that arthritis stopped me building numbers of wheels, but thats crackers.
8/9/10 speed 135mm OLN wheels are about 120kgf driveside, 80 nds.....thats 25 on the gauge for driveside 2mm spokes, and 19 nds with 1.8mm.
fronts want to be 100kgf both sides which is 21 on the gauge for 1.8mm.....bit of a difference for disc of course.

If you bought your gauge from Spa please send it back and get them to check it out.
I don't think I got the gauge from Spa, I've had it for ages but it hasn't had much use until now. I've put a few pics up of the wheels and the gauge. Not sure how clear they are... maybe I'm doing something wrong?

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Dingdong
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by Dingdong »

That does seem very tight .. Though the last wheel builder I used swore by higher tensions and was adamant that the wheels started truer, for longer. Whether this is correct or not, I've no idea, but the last factory built Shimano wheelset I bought was incredibly stiff. And it never went out of true
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531colin
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by 531colin »

The Park gauge is a pretty simple device, its difficult to use it "wrong".
If you put it on the same spoke 2 or 3 times you get a slightly different result, but not "off the scale"
10 or 15 years ago when they were sending them out wrong the spring was very much lighter than it should be, and they hadn't altered anything else, so you couldn't adjust the spring preload to get the right tension reading.
If you want to post it to me I'll have a look and compare readings with mine, but i'm not hopeful.

edited for clarity
Last edited by 531colin on 27 Jun 2022, 8:58am, edited 1 time in total.
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531colin
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by 531colin »

Dingdong wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 5:33am That does seem very tight .. Though the last wheel builder I used swore by higher tensions and was adamant that the wheels started truer, for longer. Whether this is correct or not, I've no idea, but the last factory built Shimano wheelset I bought was incredibly stiff. And it never went out of true
Unless you can specify higher than what? for any particular rim, its meaningless.
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Mr Tom
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by Mr Tom »

531colin wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 8:51am The Park gauge is a pretty simple device, its difficult to use it "wrong".
If you put it on the same spoke 2 or 3 times you get a slightly different result, but not "off the scale"
10 or 15 years ago when they were sending them out wrong the spring was very much lighter than it should be, and they hadn't altered anything else, so you couldn't adjust the spring preload to get the right tension reading.
If you want to post it to me I'll have a look and compare readings with mine, but i'm not hopeful.

edited for clarity
Actually that would be great if I could post it. It might be a little while before I'll be able to. I'll PM you if that's OK.


Thanks,

Tom
jb
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by jb »

Why anyone would expect the park tool or any similar make to be particularly accurate is a bit of a mystery, I expect mine to be reasonably consistent but you are best trying it on known good wheels to get a feeling of where the right tension lies. If I remove the spring from mine the nylon pointer bit binds slightly in the slot so that's going to throw it out for a start. Oiling it will also affect the reading.
Cheers
J Bro
drossall
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by drossall »

No comment on whether it's accurate, but I do remember, when reading up on things before building my first wheels, that one authority urged you not to look down the line of the spoke when building, just in case it should fail and shoot out of the wheel like an arrow into your eye. I've never forgotten that particular advice, whether or not it's a likely event :shock:
rogerzilla
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by rogerzilla »

If you cut a spoke with pliers, it doesn't go very far.
drossall
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by drossall »

No, I'd noticed that. I still build wheels slightly out of line with my eye though :D
Jdsk
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by Jdsk »

In the days when BRM were trying to build competitive engines for Formula One cars, and mostly failing because of unreliability, there was a Rule of 45. The components typically ejected themselves along the major axes and you positioned yourself at 45° to those.

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531colin
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by 531colin »

drossall wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 11:47pm No comment on whether it's accurate, but I do remember, when reading up on things before building my first wheels, that one authority urged you not to look down the line of the spoke when building, just in case it should fail and shoot out of the wheel like an arrow into your eye. I've never forgotten that particular advice, whether or not it's a likely event :shock:
Written by somebody with an over-active imagination
PT1029
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Re: Over tightened spokes

Post by PT1029 »

If you cut a spoke with pliers, it doesn't go very far
Depends how tight the spoke is....
I once worked with someone not as competent as I would wish. He was building a wheel, but someone had previously put a mix of different length spokes in the box. Thus some spokes were too short/some too long. I could hear the threads/nipple creaking as some where so tight, then one of the tighter spokes suddenly shot across the workshop.

I wonder how far a drive side spoke on a heavily dished 11/12 speed wheel might fly.
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