...how to read foreign maps?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Post Reply
User avatar
speedsixdave
Posts: 868
Joined: 19 Apr 2007, 1:48pm
Location: Ashbourne, UK

...how to read foreign maps?

Post by speedsixdave »

I'm a mappy kind of guy. If I'm going to a new area in the UK I'll always get the relevant OS mapping and I can be very happy for an age just reading a Landranger. What greater pleasure in life does a man need?

I am currently touring in France and Germany - Alsace and the Black Forest, and very nice it is too. Though I lament the lack of OS mapping in France, I'm fairly comfortable with the Michelin 1:200 000 series, especially for the weight saving over a stack of Landrangers. There's a lot to like in the Michelins, especially the green edging along particularly good routes and the well-known Michelin Star system applied to towns and villages. Is Le Struthof worth a detour and a stiff climb? Two stars suggests it probably is. And I like that you can buy a map book of the entirety of France for about £15 and cut out the pages you need.

Disappointingly my Michelin map pages run out about Freiburg, just into Germany, so my plan was to pop into a bookshop in Freiburg and buy a map of the Black Forest. There were lots of options at different scales, and I eventually selected a Kompass map specifically targetted at cyclists, at a somewhat useful 1:70 000 scale:
_DSC4750.jpg
The problem is, I just can't read the dashed thing! I've had the best part of a week with it in the Black Forest, and I just can't get on with it at all. A couple of days ago I skirted down the bottom edge of the Black Forest before turning north again towards the astounding Sankt Blasien (no stars to suggest quality). Imagine my surprise when the cycle path I was on suddenly ran along the bank of the Rhine, Europe's biggest river! Looking hard at the map I could indeed see it, but it was lost completely among all the other information:
Can you see the Rhine?
Can you see the Rhine?
After Sankt Blasien I drifted back into an area covered my the Michelins and found myself enormously relieved, reverting back straight away to the smaller-scale, clearer mapping. Consider these two different representations of the area around the Belchen mountain:
_DSC4743.jpg
original_f7ba1a19-cf5d-4f5e-9e9b-5880f975e624__DSC4744.jpg
Maybe its my aging eyes, but I just can't 'read' the German map happily at all. I can't figure out instantly the hierarchy of roads, though of course there is a key. They only bother chevronning cycle routes, and then > is 3-7% and >> is greater than 7%. I'm happy to ride up an 8% gradient all day long, but will actively avoid 20% with bags if I can. But you're on your own with the contours and shading there. And a 3% gradient is not worth indicating in my book. I think much of the problem here is that it's heavily biased towards showing cycle routes, and as soon as you stray from those, there be dragons.

I know we are spoilt in the UK, but this has led me to consider how good the French Michelin maps are too, in their own way. Does anyone know of good German mapping for cyclists for next time?
Big wheels good, small wheels better.
Two saddles best!
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by Jdsk »

We used the Bikeline tour books for the Rhine trip:
https://www.bike24.com/p22252.html

Their maps were clear. Does anyone know the source?

Thanks

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by Jdsk »

It's more often for walking than cycling, but when I don't know which maps to use I talk to The Map Shop. They're very helpful and very quick to respond to emails:
https://www.themapshop.co.uk

Unless I'm in London when I go in person to Daunt:
https://dauntbooks.co.uk

Jonathan
User avatar
speedsixdave
Posts: 868
Joined: 19 Apr 2007, 1:48pm
Location: Ashbourne, UK

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by speedsixdave »

Thanks Jonathan, I'll have a look at the Bikeline books. And I should have tried The Map Shop. What I've found interesting (!) is the difference between a map that looks good in a shop and a map that works well when you're not sure which way to go on a hillside desolate. I had a 1:200 000 map of that bit of Germany with me that I didn't like the look of in the comfort of my living room, so I took it as backup and then left it at a charity book exchange* when I'd bought the Kompass map. The Kompass map looked the best of the bunch in the shop, but I couldn't get on with it as discussed. I wonder if visitors to the UK feel the same about OS maps? Is it merely that that's what we've been brought up with?

Apologies for this bit, because I've now had two pints of excellent French 7% craft beer. When I was a youth I was reasonably certain that all sorts of British things were better then their foreign counterparts, including but not limited to: touring bikes, explorers, aeroplanes, batsmen, armed forces, legal systems, literature, pop music, films, meteorological services, maps, sausages, cheese and of course beer. But as I have grown older, I have realised that the world is somewhat more nuanced. But the OS? Surely that is our one undeniable advantage over les autres!




*I popped back the same way a couple of hours later and had a look, and noted that the map had gone. I was pleased at the time, but now I worry that someone had spotted a Rare Good Map and snapped it up...
Big wheels good, small wheels better.
Two saddles best!
Galactic
Posts: 249
Joined: 21 May 2022, 7:42am

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by Galactic »

Really not a fan of the Kompass maps - they're ok for walking, but (counter-intuitively) don't have the detail a cyclist would find useful (eg clear contours, indications of steep bits, distinguishing between signed and non-signed cycle touring routes or even mountain bike trails). They appear cluttered and the scale is too small (too big?) for cycling, am constantly having to stop to refold the map.

For Germany, you really can't beat the BVA Radtourenkarten 1:150k maps, which are badged and vetted by (and contributed to by local members of) the ADFC, the German cycling organisation. The 150k scale is a decent trade off between covering reasonable areas on one map, yet still having a good level of detail (surface quality, steep gradients, contour lines, pretty towns, bike shops, campsites etc etc).

Unlike the Kompass maps, the BVA ones are very clear and have details of cycle routes (route name and logo). Standords have them for £10.99 https://www.stanfords.co.uk/Germany-ADF ... SI00000218 - see that page for a sample of the mapping. Freiburg is on map number 24.

I am a huge fan of the BVA maps, and miss them sorely when traveling in other countries - am very pleased they now cover Denmark, Benelux and parts of Italy and hope they will continue expanding their coverage.

PS BVA also do 50k/75k maps for local trips - also very good mapping, but not so useful if you plan to cover some distance.

PPS Bikeline are also decent, as are Grünes Herz, but neither as clear yet detailed as the BVA 150k for general touring. Bikeline really comes into their own with their spiral bound route guides with lots of detailed touristy information, but generally I like to decide my route as I go along, so a general map is more to my taste.
User avatar
speedsixdave
Posts: 868
Joined: 19 Apr 2007, 1:48pm
Location: Ashbourne, UK

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by speedsixdave »

Galactic wrote: 16 Jun 2022, 7:18pm

For Germany, you really can't beat the BVA Radtourenkarten 1:150k maps,

I am a huge fan of the BVA maps, and miss them sorely when traveling in other countries
Thanks Galactic, that's really useful (or would have been a week ago!}. I can't remember if I saw them in the Freiburg bookshop but I think my natural inclination world have been to ignore 1:150000 in favour of something bigger. But it's been a sure fire learning experience. Small scale that is legible and useful is better than large scale that is not.
Big wheels good, small wheels better.
Two saddles best!
Galactic
Posts: 249
Joined: 21 May 2022, 7:42am

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by Galactic »

I know it's a week late, but if you want large scale (more detail), then maybe the BVA Regionalkarte 1:75k might be for you, eg https://www.fahrrad-buecher-karten.de/k ... 3870739140 ?

The Stanfords link for these 75k maps is: https://www.stanfords.co.uk/Germany-ADF ... SI00002199 (NB the picture on this page showing map coverage is for the 150k ones, not the 75k, so you'll have to work through the descriptions to see what areas are covered or check this image: https://res.cloudinary.com/pim-red/imag ... lsbaty.jpg )

If it were me, I'd dump the Kompass map and get the BVA. It's a tenner well invested and will give you pleasure while planning and touring.
Dingdong
Posts: 966
Joined: 22 Apr 2022, 4:59pm

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by Dingdong »

I have several hard copies of Spanish off road routes if anyone is interested?
Will
Posts: 484
Joined: 16 Jan 2007, 6:39pm

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by Will »

Galactic wrote: 17 Jun 2022, 6:04am I know it's a week late, but if you want large scale (more detail), then maybe the BVA Regionalkarte 1:75k might be for you, eg https://www.fahrrad-buecher-karten.de/k ... 3870739140 ?

The Stanfords link for these 75k maps is: https://www.stanfords.co.uk/Germany-ADF ... SI00002199 (NB the picture on this page showing map coverage is for the 150k ones, not the 75k, so you'll have to work through the descriptions to see what areas are covered or check this image: https://res.cloudinary.com/pim-red/imag ... lsbaty.jpg )

If it were me, I'd dump the Kompass map and get the BVA. It's a tenner well invested and will give you pleasure while planning and touring.
There is also a mobile app called "ADFC Karten" available for these ADFC cycle maps that runs on Android and iPhone. A map sheet usually costs around £2.99 and you can use it in conjunction with the paper maps to check where you are. You can also zoom in on the app, which is useful if you have failing eyesight.

Will
eileithyia
Posts: 8399
Joined: 31 Jan 2007, 6:46pm
Location: Horwich Which is Lancs :-)

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by eileithyia »

TBH never had a problem with foreign maps, other than the fact that Danish maps seemed to mark the YHA in the easiest space they could... in one town it was in the sea!!
I stand and rejoice everytime I see a woman ride by on a wheel the picture of free, untrammeled womanhood. HG Wells
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by Jdsk »

Will wrote: 17 Jun 2022, 9:42am
Galactic wrote: 17 Jun 2022, 6:04am I know it's a week late, but if you want large scale (more detail), then maybe the BVA Regionalkarte 1:75k might be for you, eg https://www.fahrrad-buecher-karten.de/k ... 3870739140 ?

The Stanfords link for these 75k maps is: https://www.stanfords.co.uk/Germany-ADF ... SI00002199 (NB the picture on this page showing map coverage is for the 150k ones, not the 75k, so you'll have to work through the descriptions to see what areas are covered or check this image: https://res.cloudinary.com/pim-red/imag ... lsbaty.jpg )

If it were me, I'd dump the Kompass map and get the BVA. It's a tenner well invested and will give you pleasure while planning and touring.
There is also a mobile app called "ADFC Karten" available for these ADFC cycle maps that runs on Android and iPhone. A map sheet usually costs around £2.99 and you can use it in conjunction with the paper maps to check where you are. You can also zoom in on the app, which is useful if you have failing eyesight.
Thanks, both.

That's going to be very helpful, possibly next year.

Jonathan
User avatar
MrsHJ
Posts: 1823
Joined: 19 Aug 2010, 1:03pm
Location: Dartmouth, Devon.

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by MrsHJ »

Dingdong wrote: 17 Jun 2022, 7:09am I have several hard copies of Spanish off road routes if anyone is interested?
I’d be interested in the Ruta de la plata ones if you happen to have them.
resus1uk
Posts: 294
Joined: 12 Mar 2007, 9:28am

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by resus1uk »

Bikeline books are good. My sister in law manages a bookshop in Daun in the Eiffel region and I got the Moselle and Sudeifel books for local rides when I visit with my Brompton.
We found the larger scale cycle map (Radkarte) of the whole Vulkanefiel was unsuitable and had several inaccuracies and missing cycle paths.
Free maps from the tourist office were much better.
Dingdong
Posts: 966
Joined: 22 Apr 2022, 4:59pm

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by Dingdong »

MrsHJ wrote: 18 Jun 2022, 2:28pm
Dingdong wrote: 17 Jun 2022, 7:09am I have several hard copies of Spanish off road routes if anyone is interested?
I’d be interested in the Ruta de la plata ones if you happen to have them.
Sorry don't have that.
User avatar
MrsHJ
Posts: 1823
Joined: 19 Aug 2010, 1:03pm
Location: Dartmouth, Devon.

Re: ...how to read foreign maps?

Post by MrsHJ »

No worries, I ordered it from Spain and just got it delivered. I can’t say I’m fully committed yet but it’s looking likely for the spring. I can now see it’s available from Amazon uk but buried very deep in the system.

I’ll be looking for the Asturias map Michelin 142 but it’s only a fiver on Amazon so probably easier to get from there.

For the Ruta de la plata map book link
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/8412118413/ ... eml_rv0_dp
Post Reply