Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

ratherbeintobago
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Joined: 5 Dec 2010, 6:31pm

Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

toontra wrote: 14 Jun 2022, 8:35pm
Pete Owens wrote:Even with no modal shift it is better for those using the boundary roads.

The reason rat-runners do it is to bypass the congestion on those roads - so what they are doing is queue jumping.
If you are a user of the boundary road this means that a rat runner that was queueing behind you uses inappropriate residential streets to get in front of you so now you have to wait for them at the next lights.
I suspect that's exactly why cabbies are so opposed to them.

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my 21051182G using hovercraft full of eels.
That one makes no sense either. More people feeling they can manage without a car surely means more customers for cabbies?
toontra
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Joined: 21 Dec 2007, 11:01am
Location: London

Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by toontra »

Cabbies pride themselves on knowing all the rat-runs precisely for the reason suggested - I. e. to avoid congestion on the main roads.

I can only surmise that is why they are so opposed to LTN's.

What really offended me is how they disguised their opposition by claiming the closures would adversely affect the disabled and elderly when there was little evidence of this. Where it could be proven it did, mitigating measures were quickly put in place.

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my 21051182G using hovercraft full of eels.

Stevek76
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Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Stevek76 »

I don't think cabbie Twitter/Facebook is a representative sample of cabbies in general.

But yes, the select few cabbies that are heavily involved in opposing these measures clearly aren't very interested in their own incomes.

What they should be doing is supporting these and actually pushing councils to follow up with complimentary measures to reduce car ownership such as a gradual throttle on residents parking in the LTNs. ie increasing rpz fees, reallocation of car parking spaces to bike hangars & 'parklets' etc.

As for rat runs, in most places rat running rarely saves time, often it can take longer but drivers perceive it as faster as they keep moving. Cabbies might know a greater geographical coverage of rat runs but most trips are repeated and regular so more than enough drivers on any particular route will be sufficiently aware of the rat runs relevant to them to clog them up.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Pete Owens
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Pete Owens »

Sadly it looks like the council has caved in to the rat runners:
https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/ne ... -bus-gate/
i thought it was too much to hope that the council had moved into the 21st century.
Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Pete Owens »

Well at least (glass half full) they managed to install one of the LTNs:
https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/183709/
Perhaps when the fuss dies down and folk realise that the world didn't come to an end there might be less shrill opposition next time.
ratherbeintobago
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Joined: 5 Dec 2010, 6:31pm

Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

That’s good news at least in part.

In Manchester, the Levenshulme LTN is being made permanent with 70% of residents in favour, and expansion is planned.

Anyone know what the current state of the Oxford horror show is?
Jdsk
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Jdsk »

ratherbeintobago wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 12:50pmAnyone know what the current state of the Oxford horror show is?
Current consultation in east Oxford:
https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/eas ... -ltns-2022

Jonathan
Royal2
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Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Royal2 »

Jdsk wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 6:31pm
ratherbeintobago wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 12:50pmAnyone know what the current state of the Oxford horror show is?
Current consultation in east Oxford:
https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/eas ... -ltns-2022

Jonathan
I've no idea what the political situation is but I live on Iffley Road. The latest introduction of LTNs has effectively turned Iffley Road into a High Traffic Network in the mornings. The new traffic jam not only increases local pollution (both noise and fumes), but also delays busses and leads to many cyclists using the pavement.

LTN supporters must surely acknowledge that there are losers as well as winners, and that the losers are not always the car drivers. Indeed, my experience so far leads me to the view that LTNs favour the few who live in them - not the many who don't.
mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by mattheus »

Royal2 wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 10:04am
Jdsk wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 6:31pm
ratherbeintobago wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 12:50pmAnyone know what the current state of the Oxford horror show is?
Current consultation in east Oxford:
https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/eas ... -ltns-2022

Jonathan
I've no idea what the political situation is but I live on Iffley Road. The latest introduction of LTNs has effectively turned Iffley Road into a High Traffic Network in the mornings. The new traffic jam not only increases local pollution (both noise and fumes), but also delays busses and leads to many cyclists using the pavement.

LTN supporters must surely acknowledge that there are losers as well as winners, and that the losers are not always the car drivers. Indeed, my experience so far leads me to the view that LTNs favour the few who live in them - not the many who don't.
I'd have a lot more sympthy for your viewpoint if drivers in the area hadn't repeatedly vandalised the bollards/planters. It started before any data could be collected!
ratherbeintobago
Posts: 974
Joined: 5 Dec 2010, 6:31pm

Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by ratherbeintobago »

mattheus wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 2:13pm
Royal2 wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 10:04am
Jdsk wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 6:31pm
Current consultation in east Oxford:
https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/eas ... -ltns-2022

Jonathan
I've no idea what the political situation is but I live on Iffley Road. The latest introduction of LTNs has effectively turned Iffley Road into a High Traffic Network in the mornings. The new traffic jam not only increases local pollution (both noise and fumes), but also delays busses and leads to many cyclists using the pavement.

LTN supporters must surely acknowledge that there are losers as well as winners, and that the losers are not always the car drivers. Indeed, my experience so far leads me to the view that LTNs favour the few who live in them - not the many who don't.
I'd have a lot more sympthy for your viewpoint if drivers in the area hadn't repeatedly vandalised the bollards/planters. It started before any data could be collected!
Also the issue that (as has been seen in schemes elsewhere) it takes a few weeks/months for traffic evaporation (i.e. people switching from driving to walking/cycling) to occur. I'm not saying it's great in the early stages, but surely if this is a persistent problem then the trial will show that?
Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Pete Owens »

Royal2 wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 10:04am I've no idea what the political situation is but I live on Iffley Road. The latest introduction of LTNs has effectively turned Iffley Road into a High Traffic Network in the mornings
Are you are seriously trying to tell us that the A4158, the main road leading into Oxford from the south east was not already busy during the morning rush hour????

This is the appropriate route for through traffic. In order to tackle congestion and pollution on main A roads you need to introduce road pricing to deter overall car use- not direct traffic onto inappropriate residential streets. And of course if the A road was not already congested then nobody would be detouring along the inherently slower residential streets to try to jump the queue.

And if you are suggesting that rat-running is desirable in order to reduce traffic on the main road then the logic of your argument would mean that the rat-runs should be sign posted. Of course not even the rat runners would welcome that, because the only reason that the rat runs work at all is that relatively few people use them.
Stevek76
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Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Stevek76 »

Much of the time rat runs don't even provide any time benefit for the users. They are just perceptually better for some drivers because a bit more time is spent not in a queue.

In some cases they can actually reduce overall network motor vehicle capacity because junction interactions to get in and out of the rat runs from main roads (particularly right turns off the main road) reduce capacity more than the tiny amount gained from the rat run.

This is also where some of the safety benefits of LTNs come from as there's far less motor traffic in a rush diving in and out of side roads into crossing pedestrians.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Pete Owens »

Indeed there was a particularly bad case of that in Warrington where a dual carriageway was put in to replace the main road in from the west (the A57), but without blocking the old road. The two routes rejoined at a roundabout with the old road coming in from the right thus having priority over the dual carriageway. This meant that during the morning rush hour when there was a constant stream of traffic coming from the old road, the dual carriageway was almost completely blocked. There was a powerful incentive to rat-run and, ironically, the safest route for cyclists was to filter between the lanes of stationary traffic on the dual carriageway.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Jdsk »

ratherbeintobago wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 2:16pm
mattheus wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 2:13pm
Royal2 wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 10:04am I've no idea what the political situation is but I live on Iffley Road. The latest introduction of LTNs has effectively turned Iffley Road into a High Traffic Network in the mornings. The new traffic jam not only increases local pollution (both noise and fumes), but also delays busses and leads to many cyclists using the pavement.

LTN supporters must surely acknowledge that there are losers as well as winners, and that the losers are not always the car drivers. Indeed, my experience so far leads me to the view that LTNs favour the few who live in them - not the many who don't.
I'd have a lot more sympthy for your viewpoint if drivers in the area hadn't repeatedly vandalised the bollards/planters. It started before any data could be collected!
Also the issue that (as has been seen in schemes elsewhere) it takes a few weeks/months for traffic evaporation (i.e. people switching from driving to walking/cycling) to occur. I'm not saying it's great in the early stages, but surely if this is a persistent problem then the trial will show that?
From what I can tell it takes some time for opinions to settle as well as the traffic. Six months seems to be quoted sometimes.

I'd like to agree that studies of the trial will give clear answers on the effects and the opinions. But I don't have much confidence that the studies are sufficiently powerful or independent.

Shirley
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods?

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 6:31pm
ratherbeintobago wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 12:50pmAnyone know what the current state of the Oxford horror show is?
Current consultation in east Oxford:
https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/eas ... -ltns-2022
Just had the email from Cyclox:

"Oxfordshire County Council (OCC) Cabinet Members are due to make a final decision regarding the three Cowley LTNs (Florence Park, Church Cowley, Temple Cowley) on Tuesday 19th July."

followed by how to to make your voice heard.

Jonathan
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