British Cycling Balls Up its Transgender Policy

[Jdsk]

The OED definition of gender:

"Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female".

A lot to unpack there, but essentially the line should be drawn at biological identity with the exception of individuals born male who have gender reassignment therapy before puberty.

What do you mean by "biological identity"?

Thanks

Jonathan

[ChrisP100]

The OED definition of gender:

"Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female".

A lot to unpack there, but essentially the line should be drawn at biological identity with the exception of individuals born male who have gender reassignment therapy before puberty.

What do you mean by "biological identity"?

Thanks

Jonathan

The biological identity as in born XX or XY chromosome.

[Jdsk]

The OED definition of gender:

"Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female".

A lot to unpack there, but essentially the line should be drawn at biological identity with the exception of individuals born male who have gender reassignment therapy before puberty.

What do you mean by "biological identity"?

The biological identity as in born XX or XY chromosome.

Thanks.

Does that mean that the chromosomes of all competitors should be analysed? Without that how would you know where to draw the line?

Jonathan

[ChrisP100]

What do you mean by "biological identity"?

The biological identity as in born XX or XY chromosome.

Thanks.

Does that mean that the chromosomes of all competitors should be analysed? Without that how would you know where to draw the line?

Jonathan

It's a very difficult line to tread, but I think a line has to be drawn somewhere. I personally don't think post puberty XY should be allowed to compete against XX because it simply isn't a level playing field.

In terms of determining biological identity, certainly at amateur level you would initially have to rely on the integrity of the athlete. If prize money is involved and event organisers are concerned that a competitor may have some physiological advantage due to a gender dysphoria then they should have the right to withhold any prize money until proof was obtained. This would certainly have to be written into competition rules and made clear to all competitors.

For Pro/Semi-pro athletes there could be some sort of biological passport.

I know this will be seen as discriminatory towards the Trans M to F community, but the conversely allowing it is a huge disadvantage toward XX athletes who identify as their birth sex. It's just one of those situations in life where I think it's impossible to satisfy everyone, and the sooner we accept that the better.

[Jdsk]

The biological identity as in born XX or XY chromosome.

Thanks.

Does that mean that the chromosomes of all competitors should be analysed? Without that how would you know where to draw the line?

It's a very difficult line to tread, but I think a line has to be drawn somewhere. I personally don't think post puberty XY should be allowed to compete against XX because it simply isn't a level playing field.

In terms of determining biological identity, certainly at amateur level you would initially have to rely on the integrity of the athlete. If prize money is involved and event organisers are concerned that a competitor may have some physiological advantage due to a gender dysphoria then they should have the right to withhold any prize money until proof was obtained. This would certainly have to be written into competition rules and made clear to all competitors.

For Pro/Semi-pro athletes there could be some sort of biological passport.

I know this will be seen as discriminatory towards the Trans M to F community, but the conversely allowing it is a huge disadvantage toward XX athletes who identify as their birth sex. It's just one of those situations in life where I think it's impossible to satisfy everyone, and the sooner we accept that the better.

Was your previous post about "biological identity" and chromosomes only about eligibility of transgendered competitors, or about all competitors?

Thanks

Jonathan

[ChrisP100]

Was your previous post about "biological identity" and chromosomes only about eligibility of transgendered competitors, or about all competitors?

Thanks

Jonathan

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the point you are trying to make is that it may be some how discriminatory towards the transgender community?

On the face of it it may appear that way, but it is just down to unavoidable circumstance if we want to ensure a level playing field. All competitors (as far as I know) have to declare their gender anyway when the enter a competition, so it's nothing new. It should just be made clear that in this instance gender relates to sex at birth (post puberty in the case of M to F). Where there there is any doubt, or if competition organisers specify that proof is required then competitors should have to provide evidence to back up their declaration.

Like I said, it's an incredibly emotive subject and a very difficult line to tread.

[Jdsk]

Was your previous post about "biological identity" and chromosomes only about eligibility of transgendered competitors, or about all competitors?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the point you are trying to make is that it may be some how discriminatory towards the transgender community?

On the face of it it may appear that way, but it is just down to unavoidable circumstance if we want to ensure a level playing field. All competitors (as far as I know) have to declare their gender anyway when the enter a competition, so it's nothing new. It should just be made clear that in this instance gender relates to sex at birth (post puberty in the case of M to F). Where there there is any doubt, or if competition organisers specify that proof is required then competitors should have to provide evidence to back up their declaration.

Like I said, it's an incredibly emotive subject and a very difficult line to tread.

I previously read it as being what you saw as the major criterion for all competitors, but on rereading it occurred to me that you might only be suggesting this for transgendered competitors...

Jonathan

[francovendee]

I know little about the science behind the arguments on transgender athletes and competition.
Our resident fact checker may help but I keep hearing about trans females competing in female events but nothing about the reverse i.e. trans males competing in male events.
Does it happen or are trans males at too much of a disadvantage?

[Jdsk]

I think that you're probably right for events where muscle power is crucial.

There is Chris Mosier:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

I do have a personal view on how the decisions should be made: due process by the governing bodies, review of the science as it emerges, encouragement of submissions from the many actors, acceptance that change will happen, and everything done out in the open.

New eligibility criteria for competitive swimming:
https://resources.fina.org/fina/documen ... FINAL-.pdf]

"World swimming's governing body FINA is setting up a working group to look into creating an 'open category' to ensure inclusivity after voting to restrict transgender women from competing in elite women's competition."
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sport ... 022-06-23/

...

And The Economist on the same approach:
"Sports should have two categories: “open” and “female”"
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/ ... and-female

But I think that it's paywalled.

Includes:
"Sports must therefore choose between inclusion and fairness; and they should choose fair play. That does not mean, as is sometimes alleged, that trans women would be barred from all sport. One way to make that clear would be to replace the “men’s” and “women’s” categories with “open” and “female” ones. The first would be open to all comers. The second would be restricted on the basis of biology."

Jonathan

[francovendee]

I think that you're probably right for events where muscle power is crucial.

There is Chris Mosier:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

Jonathan

Aside from a few sports isn't muscle power a prerequisite?

[foxyrider]

I do have a personal view on how the decisions should be made: due process by the governing bodies, review of the science as it emerges, encouragement of submissions from the many actors, acceptance that change will happen, and everything done out in the open.

New eligibility criteria for competitive swimming:
https://resources.fina.org/fina/documen ... FINAL-.pdf]

"World swimming's governing body FINA is setting up a working group to look into creating an 'open category' to ensure inclusivity after voting to restrict transgender women from competing in elite women's competition."
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sport ... 022-06-23/

...

And The Economist on the same approach:
"Sports should have two categories: “open” and “female”"
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/ ... and-female

But I think that it's paywalled.

Includes:
"Sports must therefore choose between inclusion and fairness; and they should choose fair play. That does not mean, as is sometimes alleged, that trans women would be barred from all sport. One way to make that clear would be to replace the “men’s” and “women’s” categories with “open” and “female” ones. The first would be open to all comers. The second would be restricted on the basis of biology."

Jonathan

wasn't time trialling doing this 50 years ago?

[Cugel]

Why not cut the Gordian Knot? I've never fully understood why there are separate male & female sports events, other than as an efflorescence of the general culture of patriarchy whereby females are automatically regarded as lesser beings than males.

Suppose, for example, that Le Tour was open to teams of mixed gender cyclists (aka "anybody fit enough to qualify"). Would this make the racing less interesting? Personally I feel it might be a lot more interesting.

Mind, some think professional sport is about sport. It isn't, really, it' about entertainment. As such, the gender differentiations in pursuit of "fair competition" has far less meaning. If we want fair competition, all the Tour riders should be on the same bike with no technical differences other than the sizes, to suit their physical details.

Cugel

[mattheus]

Why not cut the Gordian Knot? I've never fully understood why there are separate male & female sports events, other than as an efflorescence of the general culture of patriarchy whereby females are automatically regarded as lesser beings than males.

It is mainly female athletes supporting the divisions. Have you asked any about your ... interesting theory?

[Cugel]

Why not cut the Gordian Knot? I've never fully understood why there are separate male & female sports events, other than as an efflorescence of the general culture of patriarchy whereby females are automatically regarded as lesser beings than males.

It is mainly female athletes supporting the divisions. Have you asked any about your ... interesting theory?

Have you the survey that contains the details showing that its mainly female athletes supporting gender divisions in sporting events?

But perhaps no need to ask one's unavoidably small local group of female athletes about what they think. Opinions are just that, anyway. What matter is the happenings if sporting events are no longer made gender-divisive. Who will enter them and who will not? What will the results look like?

It's not hard to find mixed gender sporting events (generally the real, amateur events rather than the professional entertainment spectacles). For example, marathons and many other running events. Why not try it with cycling? If required, finishers can be post-race separated into various winners, such as "first of the 18 year olds and under; first vet 45-55; first woman 19-44; etc..

Other post-race criteria employed for prize giving might be "first trans-gender male-to-female" and so forth.

The point is that everyone gets to compete.

Cugel