Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

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Jdsk
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Jdsk »

I can't tell where the sarcasm starts and stops!

: - )

Jonathan
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Vorpal »

Personally, I'd far rather people were hesitant than rush things. Stupid overtakes have been the cause for a high percentage of my memorable incidents, and the only time I've been forced off the road.

So, it's possible that people may be cautious because of bad experience, either with a particular area, or something recent elsewhere. What may seem like enough room to overtake to one person, might not seem so to a local who (for example) had a scare there last week when they narrowly missed a head-on collision because another driver was a ****.

There are a couple of places where I drive &/or cycle occasionally that are far more hazardous than they appear to be. One of them--I am not certain of the reason, though I suspect it's something about the angle of the bend--seems to have good visibility. But I've witnessed a near miss there, and nearly been hit head-on (cycling) there. I've avoided it, since then, but if I had to drive there, I'd be extra cautious overtaking anyone.
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simonhill
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by simonhill »

ChrisP100 wrote: 28 Jun 2022, 8:19am
I have experienced similar, and whilst I don't worry too much about the overly cautious driver. It is the drivers behind them who I worry about as they may be getting frustrated and could end up doing something stupid and dangerous as a result.
I agree with this. You often have the hesitant one behind you for unnecessary ages. Then once passed, all the other cars whizz past, creating more danger than usual due to frustration, etc.

Unintended consequence.
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Cugel
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Cugel »

Jdsk wrote: 28 Jun 2022, 11:42am I can't tell where the sarcasm starts and stops!

: - )

Jonathan
You must re-parse my rambling text until all the various meanings are discerned! Who knows, there may be pearls amongst all that textweed, somewhere under the drifts of circumlocution.

On the other hand .... :-)

Cugel, thinking of publishing a manual of motorist-gurns and their possible interpretations.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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AlanD
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by AlanD »

A problem that I used to have, was when I was commuting in the Reading direction, southbound along the A329. I would cycle it about 2 days a week, the other three I would drive. Between Streatley and Lower Basildon, the road has double white lines for about half a mile or more. When cycling, I could manage quite a good speed and there were countless near misses, with cars overtaking me too close/ narrowly missing cars coming the other way. The road is narrow. When I drove, my heart would sink if I saw a cyclist ahead, because I knew I could not legally pass them. The problem was the driver behind me. Road rage just does not describe it. Long horn blasts, flashing headlights, shouting. One even went right over to the other side of the road to pass (double white lines, remember), drew level to hurl obscenities and hand gestures at me, then nearly wiped out the cyclist ahead as he floored the throttle. On one occasion, I wound down my window and pointed at the lines to my right, it was a red rag to a bull. I’m glad not to do that journey any more.
Jdsk
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Jdsk »

Rule 129:

Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.
DaveReading
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by DaveReading »

Jdsk wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 7:00pmYou may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.
And the chances of being done for passing a cyclist travelling at, say, 15 mph are pretty minuscule, given that a driver has no way of measuring accurately the speed difference.

Personally, unless the cyclist looks like they're engaged in a TT, I'd have no hesitation in crossing a white line to overtake if I could see the road is clear.
Tangled Metal
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Tangled Metal »

Can I take a different POV here? There can be many perfectly valid reasons why a vehicle's driver is being hesitant with overtaking a cyclist. The ones I have experienced at a driver I a very popular cycling area in South Lakes and for many on their LEJOG are as follows: -
- I know the roads and know there's a poor sightline, bend, hidden dip or other terrain that means I cannot see far enough to overtake.
- the cyclist seems a bit erratic in their steering even though I'm hanging easy back, I do not trust their bike handling to overtake until the road gets wider.
- There's multiple cyclists strung out with gaps that aren't long enough for me to slot into to safely pass in stages. I have to wait to pass safely.
- I cannot see far enough to know it is safe for myself so I'm ignoring your gestures telling me to pass.
- I am driving a van without guys acceleration so I need a longer stretch of road that I can see is clear to overtake safely.
- Finally, it's not your job as the cyclist to determine when it's safe for me to pass. It's my job as the driver. You do not know my capabilities, my vehicles capabilities, what I can see, etc. Above all if an overtake goes wrong it isn't your fault as a cyclist but mine as an overtaking driver. If I'm cautious it's not as bad as being reckless.

BTW I don't see myself as being cautious. I've made bad d3cis in the past and got away with it but I decided to learn from that. Perhaps I wait for the bigger overtaking opportunity than I really need but I wish other drivers did that too due to my experience cycling. In some ways I find this thread as one side of the phrase "you're damned if you do and damned if you don't". Also, if you could only have two extremes of hesitant drivers or those who overtake when not safe to do so, which would you prefer? For me the hesitant driver every time.
Psamathe
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Psamathe »

Some time back I had the worst of "cautious" (though I don't think it was caution). On the tadpole bent and bouncing along one wheel in the gutter, debris, potholes and car holds back and eventually starts to overtake only to pull alongside and match my speed!. Nothing aggressive, no shouting or anything, just keeping me bouncing around trying to avoid breaking any teeth and unable to pull-out onto better road surface. I suspect curiosity (tadpole bent).

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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Phil Fouracre »

Interesting thread. Everything is a matter of perception to everyone - we're all very different. I can see the point of being as worried about a hesitant driver as a fast one. I’ve had a couple of incidents recently that have made me ‘think’!
Cycling along an open, reasonably wide straight country road, no other traffic in sight, car followed me for the best part of half a mile, then overtook as we approached a bend! Now, not so worried about the road safety issue, more, why were they doing it? The longer it went on the more disconcerting it was. Another thought occurred - what if I had been a lone female cyclist?
Second was in the car, coincidentally on the same road! As earlier, fine for bike and car, but, not two cars. Vehicle behind very close, weaving from side to side, then gesticulating, finally sounding horn. Why? Nowhere to pull in, wife driving at a reasonable 50 ish. Was it going to become threatening? Never found out.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
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Cugel
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Cugel »

Tangled Metal wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 12:04am Can I take a different POV here? There can be many perfectly valid reasons why a vehicle's driver is being hesitant with overtaking a cyclist. (snip)
- Finally, it's not your job as the cyclist to determine when it's safe for me to pass. It's my job as the driver. You do not know my capabilities, my vehicles capabilities, what I can see, etc. Above all if an overtake goes wrong it isn't your fault as a cyclist but mine as an overtaking driver. If I'm cautious it's not as bad as being reckless.

(snip)
Just so.

This is the nub of the matter - drivers behind need to make their own decisions about overtaking, hopefully in recognisance of their abilities, confidence, experience and other factors that'll make the overtake safe for them. It's a serious cyclist mistake to feel frustrated at a non-overtake, not least because your own impatience at the situation can cause you to wave on a hesitant overtaker when it's not safe for them to do so.

Cugel
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Tangled Metal »

Wise words Cugel and more succinctly put than I could manage!

I know I'm slightly more cautious than most of the drivers round here, partly because I drive a van as he partly because I really try not to intimidate cyclists. This last point is important because it's why I'm hanging right back, it's partly why I need a longer sight line and that all contributes to a sense of hesitation the cyclist must think I have.

I know that every time I've followed a cyclist's gesture to pass I felt like it ended with me having to pull in too soon. Not cutting the cyclist up just that I could not as big a gap afterwards as I like. I like to make sure there's a decent space between me and cyclists.

I know nervous cyclists, I see them a lot round my area. I also see overprotective parents cycling as a family. Heck my partner is one. It is so easy to put people off cycling if newbies or families with young children. I don't want to be the motorist to do that. So I have my own cautious approach when driving. If that's too cautious for you when you encounter me driving behind you please bear in mind I'm not doing it to annoy you just keeping the habit that will minimise issues with cyclists who are nervous on our busy roads. Please do understand that many drivers are cyclists too. There's enough of us who don't forget bad driving they encountered on a bike when they're behind a wheel and try to be the change we cyclists want in motorists.

Also we don't always get things right. There's many reasons but if a driver is being cautious there's possibly an adjustment they're making for a reason. Perhaps slower reactions due to age or tiredness, perhaps a new driver without confidence. As a cyclist we have to get on with dangerous, impatient drivers. At least the cautious driver isn't being dangerous so why is it so why is it so difficult to just live with it?
ChrisP100
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by ChrisP100 »

DaveReading wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 7:25pm
Jdsk wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 7:00pmYou may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.
And the chances of being done for passing a cyclist travelling at, say, 15 mph are pretty minuscule, given that a driver has no way of measuring accurately the speed difference.

Personally, unless the cyclist looks like they're engaged in a TT, I'd have no hesitation in crossing a white line to overtake if I could see the road is clear.
Only last week on the way home from work I was doing 40mph downhill (in a 40 zone) on a 3 lane road (2 lanes uphill, 1 lane downhill double-white line in between) and I was overtaken fully over the double-white lines with 2 vehicles coming uphill around 300yds from a 30mph zone with a speed camera.

The driver then had to fully slam on for the speed camera, and when I inevitably caught up with him at the junction about 1/2 mile ahead HE WAS ON HIS PHONE.
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by hoogerbooger »

Agree with many of the later points here.

However, me and my Missus sometimes wave over cautious traffic past when we consider it safe.....even though we recall from our distant driving tests that a driver should make their own decision. The reason we do it is simply to encourage the driver to get on with it. I agree with a previous point that when a queue of traffic builds that the risk is usually greater from all the later drivers passing badly having got frustrated by the cautious driver. So I'm always keen to encourage safe passing as soon as possible.

On wiggly/narrower roads I try to manage the drivers that approach. On such roads I'll be positioned well out into my half of the road....in attempt to make them think they can not just speed past and that yhey need to slow. As they approach I'll look back and eyeball them or at least turn my head so the driver will hopefully understand that I know they are there and so I can judge how far away/fast they are .... I'll make a decision then if I think it's safe for them to pass. If so I'll pull in closer to the road edge to encourage them to pass....which they nearly always do. If I think it's not safe for them to pass I hold my line listening to check they are slowing down. When the situation looks good I'll pull in closer to the road edge , look behind again...and usually they overtake.....& then I wave them a thank you.

When out with the Missus I cycle at the back, we communicate and sometimes she waves them on...in addition to the above routine that I do..... sunny so the driver knows that she also knows that a car is behind.

[ I of course get criticism for slipstreaming the Missus from others!!....but as she has been mashed up by a bad driver before we are both keen it doesn't happen again]

I think the looking behind works for some of the cautious drivers .....and encourages them to make a decision rather not making a decision and crawling along for eons behind you......although sometimes they just can't !!
old fangled
SpaceCaptainTheodore
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by SpaceCaptainTheodore »

I would echo Tangled Metal and Kugel.

I live in the North Lakes and, daily, drive on popular cycle routes.

Knowing the roads and typical speeds of oncoming traffic, I often see cyclists getting a bit twitchy but, without close-passing, simply cannot guarantee the safety of all parties. Similarly, if I paid heed to cyclists waving me on, I would have had multiple head-on collisions by now (actually, I probably wouldn't be driving but you know what I mean).

As a cyclist, my advice is to remind yourself that if someone is taking their time to overtake either they are happy with it, in which case you don't need to be concerned; or as the slow moving vehicle, it is our responsibility to stop hold-ups and get out of the way at a suitable juncture (annoying when you're making progress, but never the end of the world and much better than getting stressed).

Finally (!) I have often observed that when cars ahead are close-passing (usually commuter traffic), if I take my time and exaggerate the gap most cars behind will recognise there's nothing to be gained with a fast and close pass and will follow suit. So I honestly wouldn't get too concerned about the impact of over-cautious drivers.
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