Can you give an example per chance of how your 'minimal experience' with the police links in with 'protecting the interests of the powerful' ? It sounds fascinating.Cugel wrote: ↑29 Jun 2022, 4:59pm This article reverberates with my (minimal) experience with the police:
https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/20 ... s-powerful
Basically, the police (any police) are primarily used to protect the interests of the powerful, often at the expense of the powerless.
Cugel
Can the Met be trusted?
Re: Can the Met be trusted?
Re: Can the Met be trusted?
Not a surprise as they are the instruments of the legal system which itself is largely concerned with the preservation of wealth and, as you say, the protection of the powerful.
Re: Can the Met be trusted?
One example that is perhaps quite illuminating of the general problem concerns an encounter with the village polis man for the village (Dolphinholme) I lived in at the time, on the Duke of Westminster's estate around Abbeystead in The Bowland Fells. I'd taken some visiting friends for a walk along the public footpath that goes through the estate, from Marshaw to Abbeystead village.ossie wrote: ↑29 Jun 2022, 8:49pmCan you give an example per chance of how your 'minimal experience' with the police links in with 'protecting the interests of the powerful' ? It sounds fascinating.Cugel wrote: ↑29 Jun 2022, 4:59pm This article reverberates with my (minimal) experience with the police:
https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/20 ... s-powerful
Basically, the police (any police) are primarily used to protect the interests of the powerful, often at the expense of the powerless.
Cugel
Halfway along this walk, up pops the head gamekeeper - a nasty piece of work with a reputation for threatening folk with his shotgun and actually man-handling various people he came across within his domain who would be unlikely to resist his pushes, thrusts and nasty language. (He was once caught bundling two lady pensioners over a barbed wire fence for "trespassing" - which they weren't). Accompanying this bullyman was the Dolphinholme polis man.
"You're trespassing!" (waves shotgun).
"No we're not, we're on this well-signed public footpath through the estate".
"I saw you knocking down a drystone wall"!
"You saw no such thing".
"Yes we did, didn't we?" (turns to tame polis man).
This was a well-known scenario whereby the hoi-polloi were discouraged from using rights of way on The Duke's estate. In those cases where they judged their victims to be low enough in the social order, they would even concoct a case of "damage" or "poaching", with the polis man arresting and the alleged miscreant had-up in the magistrate's court. The magistrate's court was another case of "for the powerful" as such miscreants were always found guilty, on the word of the game keeper and polis man, despite there being no other evidence and the whole thing being made-up.
Must please The Duke, after all.
I witnessed many similar cases from other situations (polis says he's guilty so he must be) in the magistrate's court, where I spent many tedious hours representing the civil service department (as an "expert witness") I then worked for in various minor cases of petty fraud. Unless you had some sort of status or standing above a certain level, you would be found guilty, with no evidence at all other than the polis said you were.
But I digress.
The polis man on the public footpath me and my friends were walking was embarrassed when he saw me, as he knew me quite well and also knew who I knew amongst the Lancaster bigwigs, not to mention the local farming folk. The gamekeeper was persuaded to retract and we went on our way down the public footpath to Abbeystead, alternatively huffing with indignation and chortling at the wee man having to back down at the behest of his usually much tamer polis man.
Things have changed, some 45 years later. They don't assault walkers on the Abbeystead estate anymore and the clerk of the court in Lancaster is far less forgiving of arrogant policemen without any real evidence. Nevertheless, try making a case against one of the Establishment and ranks will close.
Cugel, once done for late drinking and fined £5. mind. I was 22 at the time.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
John Maynard Keynes
Re: Can the Met be trusted?
45 years later..thanks for thatCugel wrote: ↑29 Jun 2022, 10:05pmOne example that is perhaps quite illuminating of the general problem concerns an encounter with the village polis man for the village (Dolphinholme) I lived in at the time, on the Duke of Westminster's estate around Abbeystead in The Bowland Fells. I'd taken some visiting friends for a walk along the public footpath that goes through the estate, from Marshaw to Abbeystead village.ossie wrote: ↑29 Jun 2022, 8:49pmCan you give an example per chance of how your 'minimal experience' with the police links in with 'protecting the interests of the powerful' ? It sounds fascinating.Cugel wrote: ↑29 Jun 2022, 4:59pm This article reverberates with my (minimal) experience with the police:
https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/20 ... s-powerful
Basically, the police (any police) are primarily used to protect the interests of the powerful, often at the expense of the powerless.
Cugel
Halfway along this walk, up pops the head gamekeeper - a nasty piece of work with a reputation for threatening folk with his shotgun and actually man-handling various people he came across within his domain who would be unlikely to resist his pushes, thrusts and nasty language. (He was once caught bundling two lady pensioners over a barbed wire fence for "trespassing" - which they weren't). Accompanying this bullyman was the Dolphinholme polis man.
"You're trespassing!" (waves shotgun).
"No we're not, we're on this well-signed public footpath through the estate".
"I saw you knocking down a drystone wall"!
"You saw no such thing".
"Yes we did, didn't we?" (turns to tame polis man).
This was a well-known scenario whereby the hoi-polloi were discouraged from using rights of way on The Duke's estate. In those cases where they judged their victims to be low enough in the social order, they would even concoct a case of "damage" or "poaching", with the polis man arresting and the alleged miscreant had-up in the magistrate's court. The magistrate's court was another case of "for the powerful" as such miscreants were always found guilty, on the word of the game keeper and polis man, despite there being no other evidence and the whole thing being made-up.
Must please The Duke, after all.
I witnessed many similar cases from other situations (polis says he's guilty so he must be) in the magistrate's court, where I spent many tedious hours representing the civil service department (as an "expert witness") I then worked for in various minor cases of petty fraud. Unless you had some sort of status or standing above a certain level, you would be found guilty, with no evidence at all other than the polis said you were.
But I digress.
The polis man on the public footpath me and my friends were walking was embarrassed when he saw me, as he knew me quite well and also knew who I knew amongst the Lancaster bigwigs, not to mention the local farming folk. The gamekeeper was persuaded to retract and we went on our way down the public footpath to Abbeystead, alternatively huffing with indignation and chortling at the wee man having to back down at the behest of his usually much tamer polis man.
Things have changed, some 45 years later. They don't assault walkers on the Abbeystead estate anymore and the clerk of the court in Lancaster is far less forgiving of arrogant policemen without any real evidence. Nevertheless, try making a case against one of the Establishment and ranks will close.
Cugel, once done for late drinking and fined £5. mind. I was 22 at the time.
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Re: Can the Met be trusted?
To be fair, it's quite recent compared with some of my anecdotes and comparatively concise.
Re: Can the Met be trusted?
Ossie
Whilst this thread is primarily about the Met,other forces are no better IME.
In the past ten years I've reported a number offenders to both Cheshire and GM police forces to be met with little to no interest of any sort,just fobbed off with excuses or no action taken whatsoever and in one case being threatened with legal action for being a victim of crime.
One case of a serial offending of a driver using a car with illegal diplomatic reg plates of the DRC no less,along with other cars he owns that he swapped plates from one car to another and on one occasion had a different plate on the back to the front,and both from other cars.
It took three years to catch him,and then purely by chance when there was a local bobby responding to another incident as he drove up the avenue in which he lives,false plates and all,even though he'd been reported on numerous occasions by myself and others who live near him.
I can offer at least four occasions when I've reported drivers for dangerous driving one involving a car which I was told by the sergeant dealing with it that the car was "in the motoring trade" and therefore they couldn't do anything about it,BS is my opinion to that.
Another where I reported a car for dangerous driving and threatening and abusive behaviour toward me to be told the plates matched a white Ford Transit,the car jn question was a black Jaguar,so totally illegal.
I gave a full description of the car and it's driver including his local accent,even his tattoos,on subsequent calls to enquire whether anything had been done I was again fobbed off.
Another occasion I flagged down a police car to an incident where a a driver had deliberately close passed myself and Mrs R2 on the tandem twice within a few hundred metres,the second time waiting in a side road for the second attemt,which was so close I had to fend his car off with my hand(I slapped the nearside door)I'd caught him up in traffic and stopped the passing police car.The officers then had a chat(by this time MrsR2 was close to tears)with both of us.
I was told in no uncertain terms that the driver could bring proceedings against me for touching his car,I asked about his dangerous driving only to be told they couldn't prove anything.
Another incident involving dangerous and illegal parking near a shop adjacent to a main road where primary school children call in after school for sweets,the parking was putting small children's lives at risk as well as blocking a bus route on numerous occasions,I phoned the police to report it.
The sergeant I spoke to -now get this- asked me if I had a digital camera and could I photograph the parking with the chidren crossing the road,so he could assess the situation.I told him point blank where to go with that idea and that I was reporting a serious situation that needed attending to by him as he was the police,not me!
I have other incidents where both Cheshire and GM police have been useless complete waste of space,my experience is by no means an isolated one when I ask around.
EDITED for spelling and grammar.
Whilst this thread is primarily about the Met,other forces are no better IME.
In the past ten years I've reported a number offenders to both Cheshire and GM police forces to be met with little to no interest of any sort,just fobbed off with excuses or no action taken whatsoever and in one case being threatened with legal action for being a victim of crime.
One case of a serial offending of a driver using a car with illegal diplomatic reg plates of the DRC no less,along with other cars he owns that he swapped plates from one car to another and on one occasion had a different plate on the back to the front,and both from other cars.
It took three years to catch him,and then purely by chance when there was a local bobby responding to another incident as he drove up the avenue in which he lives,false plates and all,even though he'd been reported on numerous occasions by myself and others who live near him.
I can offer at least four occasions when I've reported drivers for dangerous driving one involving a car which I was told by the sergeant dealing with it that the car was "in the motoring trade" and therefore they couldn't do anything about it,BS is my opinion to that.
Another where I reported a car for dangerous driving and threatening and abusive behaviour toward me to be told the plates matched a white Ford Transit,the car jn question was a black Jaguar,so totally illegal.
I gave a full description of the car and it's driver including his local accent,even his tattoos,on subsequent calls to enquire whether anything had been done I was again fobbed off.
Another occasion I flagged down a police car to an incident where a a driver had deliberately close passed myself and Mrs R2 on the tandem twice within a few hundred metres,the second time waiting in a side road for the second attemt,which was so close I had to fend his car off with my hand(I slapped the nearside door)I'd caught him up in traffic and stopped the passing police car.The officers then had a chat(by this time MrsR2 was close to tears)with both of us.
I was told in no uncertain terms that the driver could bring proceedings against me for touching his car,I asked about his dangerous driving only to be told they couldn't prove anything.
Another incident involving dangerous and illegal parking near a shop adjacent to a main road where primary school children call in after school for sweets,the parking was putting small children's lives at risk as well as blocking a bus route on numerous occasions,I phoned the police to report it.
The sergeant I spoke to -now get this- asked me if I had a digital camera and could I photograph the parking with the chidren crossing the road,so he could assess the situation.I told him point blank where to go with that idea and that I was reporting a serious situation that needed attending to by him as he was the police,not me!
I have other incidents where both Cheshire and GM police have been useless complete waste of space,my experience is by no means an isolated one when I ask around.
EDITED for spelling and grammar.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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Re: Can the Met be trusted?
One problem here seems to that people's experiences with the police are sometimes blamed on the Met. Admittedly, the Met does include quite a large part of the policing establishment of England and Wales but that force has no responsibility for the day-to-day policing of anywhere outside the Metropolitan Police District (MPD)
Anyway, everybody seems to know what's wrong, but if anybody has a plan to put it right, they seem to be keeping it to themselves. The lack of any sort of a policing plan on a cycling forum is hardly a big deal, but IMO we are entitled to expect more from politicians with their hands on the levers.
At the moment, a new commissioner is due to be appointed and AIUI there is now a shortlist of two, both who might be described as Met insiders. AKA more of the same. I think we may be due for a stand off between the Home Secretary and the London Mayor, whose only contribution seems to be that he won't support anybody without an acceptable plan.
Are all these politicians so utterly gormless that they cannot see that the changes needed are beyond the authority of a new commissioner? Or are they afraid of spelling anything out?
Anyway, everybody seems to know what's wrong, but if anybody has a plan to put it right, they seem to be keeping it to themselves. The lack of any sort of a policing plan on a cycling forum is hardly a big deal, but IMO we are entitled to expect more from politicians with their hands on the levers.
At the moment, a new commissioner is due to be appointed and AIUI there is now a shortlist of two, both who might be described as Met insiders. AKA more of the same. I think we may be due for a stand off between the Home Secretary and the London Mayor, whose only contribution seems to be that he won't support anybody without an acceptable plan.
Are all these politicians so utterly gormless that they cannot see that the changes needed are beyond the authority of a new commissioner? Or are they afraid of spelling anything out?
Re: Can the Met be trusted?
TC
FWIW IMO the police need manning up properly for the job in hand(current down 43,000 officers and support staff and counting) and need to start policing properly which starts at grass roots level.The stats for GM police on sexual crime and burglary is down to total incompetence,the incidents I've offered above just beggar belief in a modern society.
Yet let there be a demonstration and the place is flooded with police!
FWIW IMO the police need manning up properly for the job in hand(current down 43,000 officers and support staff and counting) and need to start policing properly which starts at grass roots level.The stats for GM police on sexual crime and burglary is down to total incompetence,the incidents I've offered above just beggar belief in a modern society.
Yet let there be a demonstration and the place is flooded with police!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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Re: Can the Met be trusted?
I'm not saying that things should not be different. What I am saying is that significant change in the organisation of the police, especially at a national level is a matter for national and local government, rather than a new Met commissioner.
As an example among many, on this thread or another there was (in my words) a quibble about burglary now being a low priority. Once upon a time burglary ie "breaking" into a dwellinghouse during the night was taken very seriously and was triable only on indictment (judge and jury in the days when far fewer cases had to go for trial.) The downgrading of burglary wasn't brought about by the police, nationally or locally, but by social pressures to concentrate on personal violence rather than "crimes against property." Before anybody jumps in, I'm not making any sort of judgment on what's serious or what isn't, just trying to explain how we got here.
(On and off, I've been a member of this forum quite some time and anybody who's bothered to read my often rambling posts, there have been plenty of explanations of how we got where we are. All open to dispute, of course.)
As an example among many, on this thread or another there was (in my words) a quibble about burglary now being a low priority. Once upon a time burglary ie "breaking" into a dwellinghouse during the night was taken very seriously and was triable only on indictment (judge and jury in the days when far fewer cases had to go for trial.) The downgrading of burglary wasn't brought about by the police, nationally or locally, but by social pressures to concentrate on personal violence rather than "crimes against property." Before anybody jumps in, I'm not making any sort of judgment on what's serious or what isn't, just trying to explain how we got here.
(On and off, I've been a member of this forum quite some time and anybody who's bothered to read my often rambling posts, there have been plenty of explanations of how we got where we are. All open to dispute, of course.)
Re: Can the Met be trusted?
It was the inference that after 45 years 'the ranks will close' . Are the CPS part of the ranks certainly they were never part of our gang when they took over the job of prosecuting.thirdcrank wrote: ↑30 Jun 2022, 7:35am To be fair, it's quite recent compared with some of my anecdotes and comparatively concise.
It was a good story though. My three decades of mainly rural policing only commenced in the mid 80s and by then times had started to change. I covered numerous country (and Crown) estates some with prominent owners .They were mostly self policing however and for those reasons they often kept us at arms length. You might meet the gamekeeper and estate workers but rarely the owner unless the big houses had 'open days' which often happened.
Many if not of all of their issues were caused by the travelling fraternity as you well know( poaching, burglary and theft ). Lets just say they had ways and means of sorting those problems so didn't really want to bring them to our attention- the 'ways and means' that is. Strangely relations went down hill after the Hunting Act 2004 a lot of trust disappeared I found in part due to rent a mob tactics on both sides. In all I worked closely with (and supervised) numerous village or rural bobbies over the years, sadly most of these roles have disappeared but they were all decent impartial folk.
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Re: Can the Met be trusted?
Scroll down in this link for a village bobby anecdote beginning almost 45 years ago in 1978
viewtopic.php?p=1116266#p1116266
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I see the Daily Telegraph today has this:
Just to make clear, my earlier comments were my own. And while the Daily T has followed my general drift, there's nothing which might be called a plan. Also, there's not an inkling that some of this may need changes at a national level
viewtopic.php?p=1116266#p1116266
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I see the Daily Telegraph today has this:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/202 ... ut-reform/The Met Police can't clean up its act without reform
London's police force is too unwieldy to be properly led and may need to be split into different command structures
Just to make clear, my earlier comments were my own. And while the Daily T has followed my general drift, there's nothing which might be called a plan. Also, there's not an inkling that some of this may need changes at a national level
Re: Can the Met be trusted?
“We’ve got some officers who we sacked, but other legal bodies, who have a power to reinstate them, did. So I’ve got officers who we determined shouldn’t be police officers and yet I have to keep them. It sounds bizarre – I’m the commissioner, yet I can’t decide who my own workforce is.”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ark-rowley
Jonathan
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ark-rowley
Jonathan
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Re: Can the Met be trusted?
Which are the bodies he doesn't name, I wonder?
Re: Can the Met be trusted?
Prepared speech from earlier this week: "More Trust, Less Crime, High Standards":
https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets ... script.pdf
Jonathan
https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets ... script.pdf
Jonathan
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Re: Can the Met be trusted?
Happy 19,000th postJdsk wrote: ↑12 Jan 2023, 10:23am Prepared speech from earlier this week: "More Trust, Less Crime, High Standards":
https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets ... script.pdf
Jonathan