traffic lights out of synch

cyclop
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traffic lights out of synch

Post by cyclop »

Having,yet again,been unable to reach the other end of roadworks before oncoming traffic was encountered,the "Roadsafe" employees simply said,"the lights are working".I tried contacting "Roadsafe" at their London number.....no joy,it,s just a number with no employee at the other end.Someone did answer,three times actually,who eventually admitted the existence of "Roadsafe"who said they were "temporary premises",very strange.Emails wern,t answered so I,m in the process of contacting highways england.I don,t like being ignored .......Anybody else had any joy with traffic light operators?
thirdcrank
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by thirdcrank »

Temporary traffic lights usually have a contact number to ring in case of faults. (I've a feeling that this is now mandatory but I'm not sure, and if there is no phone number, it's no use to know there should be.)

Many roadworks these days are done "by or on behalf of" statutory undertakers (utilities) and they often employ contractors who use specialist subcontractors for the signs including temporary traffic lights.

If the works are being done by the traffic authority, in London afaik, it may be either Transport for London or the local borough, depending on the road. Highways England has been replaced by National Highways and deals only with motorways and other strategic roads.

I don't know where Roadsafe came into this, here's their website

https://www.roadsafe.com/about

The problem is as old as temporary traffic lights themselves. Good luck
==========================================
PS an earlier thread

viewtopic.php?p=1285926#p1285926
Pete Owens
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by Pete Owens »

cyclop wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 7:45am Having,yet again,been unable to reach the other end of roadworks before oncoming traffic was encountered,the "Roadsafe" employees simply said,"the lights are working".I tried contacting "Roadsafe" at their London number.....no joy,it,s just a number with no employee at the other end.Someone did answer,three times actually,who eventually admitted the existence of "Roadsafe"who said they were "temporary premises",very strange.Emails wern,t answered so I,m in the process of contacting highways england.I don,t like being ignored .......Anybody else had any joy with traffic light operators?
The problem is what they mean by "the lights are working" is entirely consistent with insufficient time for cyclists to pass.

I had a set of exchanges with the council over a set of permanent lights at a large junction where I turn right on the way to work. They went out and checked and confirmed that the timings were working properly according to the standards. And when I pointed out that couldn't be the case since since I was still encountering problems, they showed me the calculations they used. These calculations are based on vehicles moving at 20 mph.

So there really is no point in tackling individual operators - the probem is with the design standards they are working to.
Psamathe
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by Psamathe »

Pete Owens wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 10:38am ...The problem is what they mean by "the lights are working" is entirely consistent with insufficient time for cyclists to pass.

I had a set of exchanges with the council over a set of permanent lights at a large junction where I turn right on the way to work. They went out and checked and confirmed that the timings were working properly according to the standards. And when I pointed out that couldn't be the case since since I was still encountering problems, they showed me the calculations they used. These calculations are based on vehicles moving at 20 mph.

So there really is no point in tackling individual operators - the probem is with the design standards they are working to.
Highways I delt with absolutely refuse to accept their "standards" are anything other than 110% perfect. Even one case where a sub-contractor had followed those "standards" sub-contractor was saying they are poor standards but Highways would not even consider there might be some shortcomings in their standards.

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mjr
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by mjr »

Psamathe wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 10:44am Highways would not even consider there might be some shortcomings in their standards.
Yes, there is a reason why we refer to such local standards as "Norfolk 'n' Good" (say it out loud...)
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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DaveReading
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by DaveReading »

Pete Owens wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 10:38amThe problem is what they mean by "the lights are working" is entirely consistent with insufficient time for cyclists to pass.
I don't see the problem.

If you enter the controlled section when the light is at green, then you have priority over traffic waiting at the other end even if their light goes green before you reach the end. Don't forget that their green (and yours) doesn't mean "go" - it means "go, only if the way ahead is clear".

The alternative - making the "all-red" period (is it's officially known) long enough to enable a hypothetical cyclist to get through on every cycle of the lights, at any conceivable speed - would be ridiculously wasteful.
axel_knutt
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by axel_knutt »

DaveReading wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 7:06pm I don't see the problem.

If you enter the controlled section when the light is at green, then you have priority over traffic waiting at the other end even if their light goes green before you reach the end. Don't forget that their green (and yours) doesn't mean "go" - it means "go, only if the way ahead is clear".

The alternative - making the "all-red" period (is it's officially known) long enough to enable a hypothetical cyclist to get through on every cycle of the lights, at any conceivable speed - would be ridiculously wasteful.
Yup, and on really long road works, where you can't see if the road ahead is clear before setting off, it would be even more wasteful.
I recall some road works in Norfolk where they went from green to red, and back to green again in the time it took me to get through.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by Bmblbzzz »

DaveReading wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 7:06pm
Pete Owens wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 10:38amThe problem is what they mean by "the lights are working" is entirely consistent with insufficient time for cyclists to pass.
I don't see the problem.

If you enter the controlled section when the light is at green, then you have priority over traffic waiting at the other end even if their light goes green before you reach the end. Don't forget that their green (and yours) doesn't mean "go" - it means "go, only if the way ahead is clear".
The problem is that most people don't think of it like that. They see green light, they go. And on some long roadworks or narrow stretches, their light might go green before you're even in view, so their way ahead is clear.
The alternative - making the "all-red" period (is it's officially known) long enough to enable a hypothetical cyclist to get through on every cycle of the lights, at any conceivable speed - would be ridiculously wasteful.
Another alternative might be manually controlled stop/go boards with walkie-talkies, or lights with an automated vehicle-counting system.
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andrew_s
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by andrew_s »

DaveReading wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 7:06pm I don't see the problem.

If you enter the controlled section when the light is at green, then you have priority over traffic waiting at the other end even if their light goes green before you reach the end. Don't forget that their green (and yours) doesn't mean "go" - it means "go, only if the way ahead is clear".
The problem is that, as @Bmblbzzz notes, many motorists will ignore an oncoming cyclist, work on Green = Go, and rely on intimidating the cyclist into pulling off the side of the road.

If previous experience at that set of temporary lights lead me to believe that this may well happen, what I'll do is join the queue of cars going my way, and take primary whilst passing the lights, not allowing any cars behind me to pass. As it can take quite some time to un-jam the road if someone does ignore an oncoming set of cars behind a cyclist, it's not something that happens very often.

Having said that, if it's possible to ride in the coned off area, I'll usually do that instead.
Pebble
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by Pebble »

Pete Owens wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 10:38am
cyclop wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 7:45am Having,yet again,been unable to reach the other end of roadworks before oncoming traffic was encountered,the "Roadsafe" employees simply said,"the lights are working".I tried contacting "Roadsafe" at their London number.....no joy,it,s just a number with no employee at the other end.Someone did answer,three times actually,who eventually admitted the existence of "Roadsafe"who said they were "temporary premises",very strange.Emails wern,t answered so I,m in the process of contacting highways england.I don,t like being ignored .......Anybody else had any joy with traffic light operators?
The problem is what they mean by "the lights are working" is entirely consistent with insufficient time for cyclists to pass.

I had a set of exchanges with the council over a set of permanent lights at a large junction where I turn right on the way to work. They went out and checked and confirmed that the timings were working properly according to the standards. And when I pointed out that couldn't be the case since since I was still encountering problems, they showed me the calculations they used. These calculations are based on vehicles moving at 20 mph.

So there really is no point in tackling individual operators - the probem is with the design standards they are working to.
At its worst, the inter-green period (orange at one end to green at the other) is based on 10 metre per second (22.5 mph) and at its best it is around 16.5 mph. For instance if traffic lights are between 200 & 250 metres it will be set to 10 second ( so closer to 200m would be 18mph and 25m 22.5mph

average cyclists don't stand a chance and local councils couldn't care less, apparently motorists may get impatient and jump the lights if cyclists were given enough time.
DaveReading
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by DaveReading »

Pebble wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 12:09am
Pete Owens wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 10:38am
cyclop wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 7:45am Having,yet again,been unable to reach the other end of roadworks before oncoming traffic was encountered,the "Roadsafe" employees simply said,"the lights are working".I tried contacting "Roadsafe" at their London number.....no joy,it,s just a number with no employee at the other end.Someone did answer,three times actually,who eventually admitted the existence of "Roadsafe"who said they were "temporary premises",very strange.Emails wern,t answered so I,m in the process of contacting highways england.I don,t like being ignored .......Anybody else had any joy with traffic light operators?
The problem is what they mean by "the lights are working" is entirely consistent with insufficient time for cyclists to pass.

I had a set of exchanges with the council over a set of permanent lights at a large junction where I turn right on the way to work. They went out and checked and confirmed that the timings were working properly according to the standards. And when I pointed out that couldn't be the case since since I was still encountering problems, they showed me the calculations they used. These calculations are based on vehicles moving at 20 mph.

So there really is no point in tackling individual operators - the probem is with the design standards they are working to.
At its worst, the inter-green period (orange at one end to green at the other) is based on 10 metre per second (22.5 mph) and at its best it is around 16.5 mph. For instance if traffic lights are between 200 & 250 metres it will be set to 10 second ( so closer to 200m would be 18mph and 25m 22.5mph
I think you mean 25 seconds (not 10) for 200-250 metres - 10 seconds would require a cyclist to pedal at up to 25 m/s (56 mph) !

Here's the official standard:

Traffic timers.jpg
average cyclists don't stand a chance and local councils couldn't care less, apparently motorists may get impatient and jump the lights if cyclists were given enough time.
Like the previous poster, I have a couple of permanent light-controlled stretches of road (over narrow rail bridges) near me. If I'm queued at them, I will normally wave ahead any cars behind me when the lights turn green, which means I'll be last over the bridge. I often look behind me at the far end to see if the opposite lights have turned green - they usually have - but so far I haven't had any issues with impatient motorists.
Jdsk
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by Jdsk »

DaveReading wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 9:33am
Pebble wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 12:09am
Pete Owens wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 10:38am
The problem is what they mean by "the lights are working" is entirely consistent with insufficient time for cyclists to pass.

I had a set of exchanges with the council over a set of permanent lights at a large junction where I turn right on the way to work. They went out and checked and confirmed that the timings were working properly according to the standards. And when I pointed out that couldn't be the case since since I was still encountering problems, they showed me the calculations they used. These calculations are based on vehicles moving at 20 mph.

So there really is no point in tackling individual operators - the probem is with the design standards they are working to.
At its worst, the inter-green period (orange at one end to green at the other) is based on 10 metre per second (22.5 mph) and at its best it is around 16.5 mph. For instance if traffic lights are between 200 & 250 metres it will be set to 10 second ( so closer to 200m would be 18mph and 25m 22.5mph
I think you mean 25 seconds (not 10) for 200-250 metres - 10 seconds would require a cyclist to pedal at up to 25 m/s (56 mph) !

Here's the official standard:


Traffic timers.jpg
Thankyou

Jonathan
basingstoke123
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by basingstoke123 »

DaveReading wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 7:06pm
Pete Owens wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 10:38amThe problem is what they mean by "the lights are working" is entirely consistent with insufficient time for cyclists to pass.
I don't see the problem.

If you enter the controlled section when the light is at green, then you have priority over traffic waiting at the other end even if their light goes green before you reach the end. Don't forget that their green (and yours) doesn't mean "go" - it means "go, only if the way ahead is clear".

The alternative - making the "all-red" period (is it's officially known) long enough to enable a hypothetical cyclist to get through on every cycle of the lights, at any conceivable speed - would be ridiculously wasteful.
The problem is that some drivers will just assume that a cyclist coming towards then when they now have green means that the cyclist went through on red, and so is in the wrong. May people are less careful towards someone who is in the wrong.
Pete Owens
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by Pete Owens »

DaveReading wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 7:06pm
Pete Owens wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 10:38amThe problem is what they mean by "the lights are working" is entirely consistent with insufficient time for cyclists to pass.
I don't see the problem.

If you enter the controlled section when the light is at green, then you have priority over traffic waiting at the other end even if their light goes green before you reach the end. Don't forget that their green (and yours) doesn't mean "go" - it means "go, only if the way ahead is clear".
But BOTH road users have passed a green light - so BOTH consider they have priority.

This isn't really an issue for short roadworks where you can see the entire length of them - but for longer roadworks, the oncoming driver will have seen what appears to be the last of the platoon coming through with an apparently clear road behind, before being given a green light.
The alternative - making the "all-red" period (is it's officially known) long enough to enable a hypothetical cyclist to get through on every cycle of the lights, at any conceivable speed - would be ridiculously wasteful.
Which is how we cyclists get designed off the roads. Ditto slow pedestrians who are not allocated sufficient time at pedestrian crossings.

Of course it ceases to be efficient if the cyclist holds their ground half way along the road works and insists that the queue of oncoming traffic reverses. Then the lights change binging forth a queue from the behind..
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Tigerbiten
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Re: traffic lights out of synch

Post by Tigerbiten »

I've around a 250 year stretch between the lights over the canal near Northampton.
I used to be able to just do it at 12-15 mph, coming in sight of the far lights just as they changed.
But the tarmac in that section is breaking up and the new roughness is slowing me down.
So I've now no chance in making it at around 10 mph.
Most vehicles do pull over and stop when they see me coming the other way as that bits fairly wide.
I've only had one 4wd car that kept coming.
I just held the line, slowed right down and waited for it to pull over then eased past once it had stopped.
The extra width of a bent trike does come in handy sometimes.

Luck ............ :D
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