English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

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colin54
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by colin54 »

Vorpal wrote: 4 Jul 2022, 8:27am Communication looks like:

jsyk omw ttys

(Just so you know, [I'm] on my way. Talk to you soon.)
hpy 4 o jly vpl !
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Vorpal »

colin54 wrote: 4 Jul 2022, 10:23am
Vorpal wrote: 4 Jul 2022, 8:27am Communication looks like:

jsyk omw ttys

(Just so you know, [I'm] on my way. Talk to you soon.)
hpy 4 o jly vpl !
lol. ty :)
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Paulatic »

Jdsk wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 7:47pm
thirdcrank wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 7:37pm Is "so consequently" an example of tautology?
I think so. But that's not always undesirable.

Jonathan
Can you give an example showing it’s not undesirable?
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 10:07am Language changes. And accepting that is precisely the message of this thread.
Is it? Well, I've already learned something today. Thank-you.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Audax67 »

mattheus wrote: 4 Jul 2022, 11:14am
Jdsk wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 10:07am Language changes. And accepting that is precisely the message of this thread.
Is it? Well, I've already learned something today. Thank-you.
Nope. 'Tain't. 'Sabout which aspects of English as she is spoke, or as she's meant to be spoke, drive you up the wall.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by mattheus »

Twas ever thus, methinks.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Paulatic wrote: 4 Jul 2022, 10:46am
Jdsk wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 7:47pm
thirdcrank wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 7:37pm Is "so consequently" an example of tautology?
I think so. But that's not always undesirable.
Can you give an example showing it’s not undesirable?
Some well-known *linguistic tautologies (that are not merely repetition) from classics of the English language:

Oh, that this too, too sullied flesh would melt,
Thaw, and resolve itself into a dew!


North Pole
Discovered by Pooh
Pooh found it


And God Almighty give you mercy before the man, that he may send away your other brother, and Benjamin. If I be bereaved of my children, I am bereaved.

With malice toward none; with charity for all...

And it's no, nay, never,
no, nay, never, no more
will I play the wild rover
no, never, no more


Jonathan

* Desirable tautologies in logic are much harder to find, but I feel Yogi Berra looming...
mattheus
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by mattheus »

Pease don't forget this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM5W7Xn7FiA

even the dutch/belgians appreciate a good tautology!
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Jdsk wrote: 4 Jul 2022, 9:00pm
Paulatic wrote: 4 Jul 2022, 10:46am
Jdsk wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 7:47pm
I think so. But that's not always undesirable.
Can you give an example showing it’s not undesirable?
Some well-known *linguistic tautologies (that are not merely repetition) from classics of the English language:

...

With malice toward none; with charity for all...
Not a tautology; there are many states between malice and charity.

(Just to be picky and awkward)
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 12:00pm
Jdsk wrote: 4 Jul 2022, 9:00pm
Paulatic wrote: 4 Jul 2022, 10:46am Can you give an example showing it’s not undesirable?
Some well-known *linguistic tautologies (that are not merely repetition) from classics of the English language:
With malice toward none; with charity for all...
Not a tautology; there are many states between malice and charity.
I had some doubts about that one. And it wasn't in my original list of examples. But then I added it. Because if Lincoln and his audience did act with with charity for all then it would exclude acting with malice towards anyone.

Any thoughts on the others, please?

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 5 Jul 2022, 12:18pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 12:00pmJust to be picky...
No need to apologise in this thread. Picky is very close to precise, and precision is a major part of good usage.

: - )

Jonathan
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 12:15pm
I had some doubts about that one. And it wasn't in my original list of examples. But then I added it. Because if Lincoln and his audience did act with with charity for all then it would exclude acting with malice towards anyone.

Any thoughts on the others, please?

Jonathan
I don't believe that charity for all; malice for none is tautology. Charity for all possibly excludes malice for anyone, but malice for none is neutral and does not extend to charity for all.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 1:10pm
Jdsk wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 12:15pm I had some doubts about that one. And it wasn't in my original list of examples. But then I added it. Because if Lincoln and his audience did act with with charity for all then it would exclude acting with malice towards anyone.
I don't believe that charity for all; malice for none is tautology. Charity for all excludes malice for anyone, but malice for none is neutral and does not extend to charity for all.
It does seem to depend on which part you take first.

Jonathan
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Vorpal »

Thinking about this, I'm not sure that charity does exclude malice. Plenty of people offer charity, then look down upon the recipients; tell them to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, call them lazy and worse.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 1:14pm Thinking about this, I'm not sure that charity does exclude malice. Plenty of people offer charity, then look down upon the recipients; tell them to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, call them lazy and worse.
I had that same thought. We predominantly now use charity about acts of charity, although a charitable interpretation is still commonly used. From the context of the Address I came to the conclusion that Lincoln was referring to the Christian virtue rather than acts of charity. That would put it as a closer opponent to malice.

Jonathan

PS: How about Pooh's tautology... or is it? : - )
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