"My dog may chase you, but he's friendly" today's ride

[mattheus]

A dog is a living creature. There are laws against cruelty to them. At the other extreme they have been known to kill small children in a family home (not just on roads or towpaths). Every week the media contains stories about negligent owners allowing suffering to these animals.

Cruelty to bicycles is not a crime in this country (no matter how much "proper" cyclists would like it!).

Comparing "fitness to own a dog" with a licence for cycling is extremely simplistic.

[Jdsk]

So compulsory dog training has no noticeable effect in Switzerland. Anyone got another example of compulsory training having no noticeable effect on behaviour? Oh like drivers not exactly following the various requirements for driving that's part of the driving test for example?

That isn't evidence of "no noticeable effect" of compulsory training on behaviour.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Comparing "fitness to own a dog" with a licence for cycling is extremely simplistic.

Yes. Argument by analogy can be very illuminating. And can help in understanding our own and others' behaviour. But it shouldn't be used to assess the benefits and harms of any proposed action. That would depend on... the benefits and harms of the proposed action.

Jonathan

[mattheus]

Comparing "fitness to own a dog" with a licence for cycling is extremely simplistic.

Yes. Argument by analogy can be very illuminating. And can help in understanding our own and others' behaviour. But it shouldn't be used to assess the benefits and harms of any proposed action. That would depend on... the benefits and harms of the proposed action.

Jonathan

Well yes.

And I note one very interesting para in the Swiss article:

The number of incidents, such as dog bites, had not decreased and there was no noticeable difference between how dog owners who had been on the course behaved, and those who had not. Around 20% of dog owners didn’t attend the course at all.

I think the bold may be rather significant when assessing behaviour change!

(Just as IMO the 11% of untaxed or insured drivers on our roads is significant when considering cycle licences ...)

[Tangled Metal]

So compulsory dog training has no noticeable effect in Switzerland. Anyone got another example of compulsory training having no noticeable effect on behaviour? Oh like drivers not exactly following the various requirements for driving that's part of the driving test for example?

That isn't evidence of "no noticeable effect" of compulsory training on behaviour.

Jonathan

It said the following in your link

The number of incidents, such as dog bites, had not decreased and there was no noticeable difference between how dog owners who had been on the course behaved, and those who had not. Around 20% of dog owners didn’t attend the course at all.

Whilst not conclusive it certainly indicates something. 80% took the course and no n noticeable difference in how those dog owners behaved to the 20% who did not take the course. Whilst I don't have the research to support it I don't think courses are necessarily able to change behaviour and performance of individuals if they're not open to the improvement. That is the same for dog owners with training courses, drivers and no doubt cyclists. There's also the familiarity issue where after time doing something many people kind of forget or ignore a lot of what they've learnt about driving, cycling, or whatever. Kind of laid back about risks.

My analogy with dogs and cyclists was one about conflict with other users. On this thread it seems to me to be a rant thread about dogs and dog owners. Kind of like motorists ranting about cyclists shouldn't be on the roads. The holding them up / forcing them to slow down. One guy saw a freely roaming dog and had to slow down, he did complain about the owners too.

There's issues with different types of users on mixed use paths and carriageways which needs consideration not confrontation to negotiate. However people often take defensive / offensive / entrenched views in threads like this, I've seen it several times over the years and wish ppl would think about whether recounting your example of the other side doing something bad actually adds anything to understanding these issues or is just a vent.

One surprising forum I've visited is the pistonheads one. They often confront the daily mail anti cycling rant posters with comments that look just like you'd expect replies on here to be like. Very positive IMHO because they seem more likely to consider other users

[Jdsk]

So compulsory dog training has no noticeable effect in Switzerland. Anyone got another example of compulsory training having no noticeable effect on behaviour? Oh like drivers not exactly following the various requirements for driving that's part of the driving test for example?

That isn't evidence of "no noticeable effect" of compulsory training on behaviour.

It said the following in your link

The number of incidents, such as dog bites, had not decreased and there was no noticeable difference between how dog owners who had been on the course behaved, and those who had not. Around 20% of dog owners didn’t attend the course at all.

I was referring to your chosen example of drivers, not to dog owners. There's a difference between "not exactly following the various requirements for driving that's part of the driving test" and "no noticeable effect". Perhaps the training before the driving test has a very large beneficial effect but there are still some drivers whose behaviour is inappropriate on some occasions.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

One surprising forum I've visited is the pistonheads one. They often confront the daily mail anti cycling rant posters with comments that look just like you'd expect replies on here to be like. Very positive IMHO because they seem more likely to consider other users

Yes. But that's only surprising if read with an expectation of polarised tribalism. I know that's common in this forum, but there really are lots of people who don't start from that position.

Jonathan

[Mike Sales]

I have noticed that many dog owners are unable to make their dogs obey.
Fenton comes to mind.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... fenton+dog
To gain a licence perhaps it should be demonstrated that the aspiring owner can train their dog to come to heel promptly. They might well be glad to learn the skill. Dogs seem to enjoy the rapport they have with a good owner.
I am not a dog person, but I have a happy memory of walking a perfectly trained dog belonging to a friend. It understood what it had to do, even when commanded by me.

[PedallingSquares]

I have noticed that many dog owners are unable to make their dogs obey.
Fenton comes to mind.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... fenton+dog
To gain a licence perhaps it should be demonstrated that the aspiring owner can train their dog to come to heel promptly. They might well be glad to learn the skill. Dogs seem to enjoy the rapport they have with a good owner.
I am not a dog person, but I have a happy memory of walking a perfectly trained dog belonging to a friend. It understood what it had to do, even when commanded by me.

Historically dogs are pack animals.This is still in their genes despite centuries of inbreeding.They still react to a dominant 'top dog'.A well trained dog will accept that we are that top dog.
Unfortunately some owners treat their dogs like children or even worse fashion accessories and those tend to be the ones that are not in control of their animal.

[audaxjk]

I was walking along a multi-purpose greenway with my wife & dog last week and a guy on a bike shot past me from behind only a foot away. No warning no reduction in speed and no time to react to reign in the dog (off his lead).
Fortunately my dog was sat in the grass (eyeing up another dog) otherwise he could have collided with the bike rider.
In a similar incident on the same Greenway, a large group of cyclists rode past myself (on a bike) and other walkers with no reduction in speed or courtesy for our own space.
My experience, is that it’s usually the cyclists who need to show some caution and common sense. Dog owners around us are usually very diligent with bike riders (and horses).

[Jdsk]

NB date.

New restrictions on XL bully dogs from tomorrow, and a successful application for judicial review:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... -bully-ban
https://www.licenceme.org.uk

Jonathan

[peterb]

Note that some cyclist love to chase other cyclists too ... part of their DNA.

Yes, but they don't nip at your ankles, or cause a trip to your local A+E to get the bite treated, not in my experience, anyway.

[Carlton green]

Before responding I should declare that I have a dog and it is not my first dog. I’m not oblivious to the problems that dogs can cause but on the other hand they can and do usually bring happiness too.

Shared use spaces are just that: you share the space rather than take what you want and you try to understand the perspective of others in that space. Of course such a concept doesn’t come easy and interpretations vary. As a cyclist I give way to others who are weaker and / or more vulnerable than myself and that does extend to dogs and even cats. I’m also aware that dogs love to chase each other and anything passing - it seems to be part of their DNA. So, as a cyclist, it’s very easy to present great temptation, to a dog, to chase; many literally can’t help themselves so the pragmatic thing to do is act accordingly (sympathetically). Note that some cyclist love to chase other cyclists too ... part of their DNA?

Interpretations of shared spaces and what’s possible vary. For the dog walker an enclosed walkway can be seen as a safe place for a dog to walk by him or her self and it is the cyclist who introduces the hazard by tempting the dog or necessitating its restriction to a lead (limiting freedoms of the dog and owner). There are no easy answers, but when you can manage to do so - which is usually hard to do and rarely automatic - then it’s best to try and see someone else’s perspective (too) before trying to impose your own.

From 8th April 2022, on the first page of this seven page thread, just in case anyone would like to see my words in context … a simple curtesy and in context is how the words of others should have been quoted.