Vicious spiral

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
David9694
Posts: 908
Joined: 10 Feb 2018, 8:42am

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by David9694 »

If I look at how in the last couple of years my goods shopping has changed, it’s no surprise that the old style LBS is much less of a feature. I’m sad about that, but I am complicit in its demise. They are important to help people get into cycling - Halfords is better than nothing.

Shops generally seem a bit slow to realise that it’s on factors like service, experience, quality and to some extent, availability that they can win at - range and price are always going to be difficult.

There’s one “bookshop” that only sells remaindered books. Anecdotally I might be in there 5-10 minutes max, but I always overhear someone enquiring about a specific topic or title. In the really nice independent, they’re constantly ‘phoning customers to say their book order has arrived. Perhaps this isn’t enough activity to sustain anything on a bigger scale.

Here’s my shopping habits - the regular essentials are nearly all online and delivered, much helped by working from home.

online
Groceries - 90% home deliveries
Clothing and housewares - occasional purchases from an independent department store, otherwise on-line
Bird food - online
Electronics and music - on line. My current PC was bought in / via Curry’s, but they delivered it next day

What remains of in person shopping
A forage in Poundland for reading glasses and batteries, a forage in T K Maxx or Homesense on a wet cold night.
A nice bookshop for a mooch/ occasional purchase on a weekend
Trying to get into gardening, so the garden centre for seeds and compost
Presents - it’s nice to get these in a shop
Furniture would be from (via) a shop
Motoring shop for spray paint; we’ve still got a well stocked local hardware shop; places like this give the lie to the American style DIY superstores.

Bike stuff - LBSs hardly in the mix at all. Halfords for inner tubes if I’m passing for Repair Cafe jobs. I like a look at M Decathlon, but don’t live near one. Ebay for bikes and bits to mess with. LBSs windows are stuffed with E bikes.

By the time you’ve got something online, sent it back, got the right thing, have you really saved against getting the right thing first time at a shop? The new service where for 70p the postman will collect a parcel from your doorstep is a game changer on that front - sparing me the utter pain of the Post Office counter, on the rare occasions it’s actually open.

Or is the hassle of doing returns how we all build our parts stores? Would I hold less “stock” myself if there was a shop that could do it for me?
Spa Audax Ti Ultegra; Genesis Equilibrium 853; Raleigh Record Ace 1983; “Raleigh Competition”, “Raleigh Gran Sport 1982”; “Allegro Special”, Bob Jackson tourer, Ridley alu step-through with Swytch front wheel; gravel bike from an MB Dronfield 531 frame.
Jules59
Posts: 420
Joined: 16 Jan 2019, 2:34pm

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by Jules59 »

We try and fight the pressure to buy everything on-line.
We still buy 100% of groceries from our local Aldi, Co-Op or local butcher (only occasionally buy supermarket meat) . We grow a lot of our own fruit and veg too.

But bikes parts are 100% on-line. My LBS has very little stock and seems to survive through selling new bikes and servicing. Clothes and shoes are a nightmare - you have to order 2 or 3 sizes and send back the ones that don't fit - which may be all of them !

But its not just cycling; beekeeping is the same with local suppliers moving to on-line only. Sadly, no more browsing around looking at beekeeping paraphernalia and chatting about the latest bee diseases or other hot topics.
Of course, just with cycling, you often buy a bit more than you need just to get the "free delivery".
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by Psamathe »

Jules59 wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 9:36pm ...
But bikes parts are 100% on-line. My LBS has very little stock and seems to survive through selling new bikes and servicing. Clothes and shoes are a nightmare - you have to order 2 or 3 sizes and send back the ones that don't fit - which may be all of them !
...
Cloths & shoes must be a real nightmare for an LBS - not only do you need a range of styles but in each style you need a range of sizes. And then they'll likely end up with unsold size 6 shoes with margin on the other sizes not covering the write-off on the unsold extreme sizes. Either that or just stock e.g. shoe sizes 8, 9 &10 (mens sizes) and have people with size 7 or 11 feet post their frustration online.

I'd guess a shop really needs the turnover volumes so they can stock a few extreme sizes and have some hope of selling them or make enough from large numbers of common sizes to not worry about a couple of pairs of extreme sizes being written off. e.g. large online stores.

Ian
LancsGirl
Posts: 255
Joined: 5 Jun 2021, 9:57pm

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by LancsGirl »

chris_suffolk wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 8:05pm Sad state of affairs, when that means I have to buy the size I think I want, plus the size up and down, with the expectation of sending 2 of the 3 back.
I used to do that. I don't think it makes sense, but am ready to be persuaded otherwise.

1. This thing I'm thinking of buying, I may be a small, I may be a medium. I'll order both and send one back. This way I WILL have to send one back. If it's free return postage, there's no cost to me (apart maybe from the packaging). But there's still time and faff, going to the post office etc.

2. If I guess at a small, there's a 50% chance I get it right, and I've got what I want.

So if returns are free, isn't 2. the optimum strategy, over time and multiple purchases?

Even if returns aren't free, if the article is fairly expensive, and the cost of returning isn't too high, then 2. is still a reasonable strategy, as I've just paid a premium to try out the clothing in my own home. I may decide that I like it, but need a different size, or I don't like it anyway. So the the cost of the return is a bit like the cost of going shopping in a real shop. Which is a cost.

Of course with clothing I'm learning what the different manufacturers think is "medium" or "small", which seems to vary dramatically from one brand to another.

EDIT. Strategy 2. relies on free outwards postage. But I usually try to get that.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by thirdcrank »

Why would bike shops stock shoes and mitts just to provide a trying-on service to enable many customers to order online with greater confidence? Even if they wanted to, they'd struggle to survive by doing it.

In the wider world of footwear, it's now the norm for mail order vendors to offer immediate return and exchange including pre-paid courier labels and returns forms.
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by Psamathe »

LancsGirl wrote: 7 Jul 2022, 1:22am
chris_suffolk wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 8:05pm Sad state of affairs, when that means I have to buy the size I think I want, plus the size up and down, with the expectation of sending 2 of the 3 back.
I used to do that. I don't think it makes sense, but am ready to be persuaded otherwise.
...
I did that recently for shoes. I'd been having great problems finding SPD shoes that fitted (width was an issue). I'd measured and re-measured my feet and all the manufacturer tables were "daft" or inconsistent. So I did an online chat with internet warehouse supplier about sizes and they said buy both and send one pair back. I was "seems daft" (particularly as they pay return carrier for any return reason. But they said it was fine and was what I should do. so I did.

Trouble is, whilst returns are free (paid for by the supplier) in reality they aren't but they are paid for in the margin they make i.e. the cost of returns is spread across everybody buying anything from them.

Ian
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 7 Jul 2022, 11:25am
LancsGirl wrote: 7 Jul 2022, 1:22am
chris_suffolk wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 8:05pm Sad state of affairs, when that means I have to buy the size I think I want, plus the size up and down, with the expectation of sending 2 of the 3 back.
I used to do that. I don't think it makes sense, but am ready to be persuaded otherwise.
...
I did that recently for shoes. I'd been having great problems finding SPD shoes that fitted (width was an issue). I'd measured and re-measured my feet and all the manufacturer tables were "daft" or inconsistent. So I did an online chat with internet warehouse supplier about sizes and they said buy both and send one pair back. I was "seems daft" (particularly as they pay return carrier for any return reason. But they said it was fine and was what I should do. so I did.
Yes.

It might not feel so undesirable when you think about the vast stocks that were needed in each retail layout under the old model... just in case someone of that size with that requirement walked in...

Jonathan
LancsGirl
Posts: 255
Joined: 5 Jun 2021, 9:57pm

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by LancsGirl »

Psamathe wrote: 7 Jul 2022, 11:25am
LancsGirl wrote: 7 Jul 2022, 1:22am
chris_suffolk wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 8:05pm Sad state of affairs, when that means I have to buy the size I think I want, plus the size up and down, with the expectation of sending 2 of the 3 back.
I used to do that. I don't think it makes sense, but am ready to be persuaded otherwise.
...
I did that recently for shoes. I'd been having great problems finding SPD shoes that fitted (width was an issue). I'd measured and re-measured my feet and all the manufacturer tables were "daft" or inconsistent. So I did an online chat with internet warehouse supplier about sizes and they said buy both and send one pair back. I was "seems daft" (particularly as they pay return carrier for any return reason. But they said it was fine and was what I should do. so I did.

Trouble is, whilst returns are free (paid for by the supplier) in reality they aren't but they are paid for in the margin they make i.e. the cost of returns is spread across everybody buying anything from them.

Ian
I suppose the cost of sending two pairs and then the free return is, as you say, spread across the whole business. But then an old fashioned shoe shop had the cost of assistants trailing to and fro into the back room when the customer says "oh let me try the size 6, they might fit". After all, especially in shoes, haven't we all experienced being in a shop surrounded by half a dozen (or more) different sizes and styles, while some assistant, who is being paid, waits patiently while we try them out. It could be that somebody picking the order, then restocking when it comes back, is actually a lot cheaper.

I think the "new" business model is fine, by and large. I appreciate the fact that companies are willing to take returns, so in return I'm scrupulous about taking care when something arrives. I unpack very carefully, keep all the packaging, try it on once and once only, and make a quick decision - keep or return.
atoz
Posts: 584
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 4:50pm

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by atoz »

David9694 wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 10:53pm If I look at how in the last couple of years my goods shopping has changed, it’s no surprise that the old style LBS is much less of a feature. I’m sad about that, but I am complicit in its demise. They are important to help people get into cycling - Halfords is better than nothing.

Shops generally seem a bit slow to realise that it’s on factors like service, experience, quality and to some extent, availability that they can win at - range and price are always going to be difficult.

There’s one “bookshop” that only sells remaindered books. Anecdotally I might be in there 5-10 minutes max, but I always overhear someone enquiring about a specific topic or title. In the really nice independent, they’re constantly ‘phoning customers to say their book order has arrived. Perhaps this isn’t enough activity to sustain anything on a bigger scale.

Here’s my shopping habits - the regular essentials are nearly all online and delivered, much helped by working from home.

online
Groceries - 90% home deliveries
Clothing and housewares - occasional purchases from an independent department store, otherwise on-line
Bird food - online
Electronics and music - on line. My current PC was bought in / via Curry’s, but they delivered it next day

What remains of in person shopping
A forage in Poundland for reading glasses and batteries, a forage in T K Maxx or Homesense on a wet cold night.
A nice bookshop for a mooch/ occasional purchase on a weekend
Trying to get into gardening, so the garden centre for seeds and compost
Presents - it’s nice to get these in a shop
Furniture would be from (via) a shop
Motoring shop for spray paint; we’ve still got a well stocked local hardware shop; places like this give the lie to the American style DIY superstores.

Bike stuff - LBSs hardly in the mix at all. Halfords for inner tubes if I’m passing for Repair Cafe jobs. I like a look at M Decathlon, but don’t live near one. Ebay for bikes and bits to mess with. LBSs windows are stuffed with E bikes.

By the time you’ve got something online, sent it back, got the right thing, have you really saved against getting the right thing first time at a shop? The new service where for 70p the postman will collect a parcel from your doorstep is a game changer on that front - sparing me the utter pain of the Post Office counter, on the rare occasions it’s actually open.

Or is the hassle of doing returns how we all build our parts stores? Would I hold less “stock” myself if there was a shop that could do it for me?
Just a point. Currys are not a good choice for PCs. They are white goods retailers. You want a real PC online site. It you read mags like Computeractive, they carry useful reviews and links. I used to patronise Maplins, as their staff knew what they were selling, being computer heads. Currys staff are not in my experience like this. Sadly Maplins are no more..
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by pete75 »

atoz wrote: 8 Jul 2022, 10:33am [
Just a point. Currys are not a good choice for PCs. They are white goods retailers. You want a real PC online site. It you read mags like Computeractive, they carry useful reviews and links. I used to patronise Maplins, as their staff knew what they were selling, being computer heads. Currys staff are not in my experience like this. Sadly Maplins are no more..
Sometimes Currys have very low priced offers on PCs and laptops. If you're buying say a Lenovo Ideapad Pro 5 laptop it makes little difference where you buy, the product will be the same. If Currys are offering the best price they are the best choice.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
axel_knutt
Posts: 2881
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 12:20pm

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by axel_knutt »

I had a snipe from the guy in Colchester Cycles once about buying online. So I checked.

At that time, my High Street purchases accounted for:

73% of purchases,
68% of money spent,
and
67% of items bought.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
TrevA
Posts: 3551
Joined: 1 Jun 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by TrevA »

I was in my (fairly local) Decathlon last night. They stock a reasonable selection of gloves, shoes, clothing etc but most of it is their own brand. I’ve had a pair of their track mitts before and they aren’t very hard wearing, the palms were not leather and they started to disintegrate after a while. Most of their shoes are own brand though they did have a smattering of Giro and Shimano shoes. All of the clothing is their own brand, either Triban or Van Rysel. I was after some shorts but the Triban ones only had a cheap, thin pad, the mid price Van Rysel had a daft phone pocket on the leg and the most expensive ones (£60) didn’t have my size. So I came away empty handed.
Sherwood CC and Notts CTC.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com
axel_knutt
Posts: 2881
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 12:20pm

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by axel_knutt »

Buying clothes online is just totally impractical. Buy two send one back is no use if neither fit, and if you have to try two sizes in half a dozen different garments, then possibly still walk away with nothing as I often do.

I was in Marks & Sparks looking for trousers last Monday and the stock levels were a bit thin, I was left with the impression they might be getting ready to close down.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by Jdsk »

In May M&S announced that they were closing 32 shops. But I've never seen a list...

Jonathan
PH
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Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Vicious spiral

Post by PH »

I spent a month at the M&S Distribution Centre, the sale or return policy is only made possible by incredibly efficient logistics and wringing every bit of value out of every employee. It was well paid, but far too tough for me! The scale and efficiency were impressive though, I'd previously worked in a retailers DC twenty years before, Littlewoods, that was considered state of the art at the time, M&S was something else, over 10x the volume per hour worked. It is incredibly wasteful though, many customers aren't ordering two to send one back, but 10 to send 9 back.
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