If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

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Manc33
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If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by Manc33 »

If you buy a factory built wheel and tension the spokes yourself (since some are nearly always looser than they should be) then haven't you essentially got the equivalent of a hand built wheel?

I once had a factory built wheel (stock wheel on the back of my Triban 3) and back then I never checked things like spoke tension, but after hundreds of miles, the non-drive side spokes were so loose I was astounded that the wheel was still performing its function. Those spokes were so loose I could turn the nipples by hand so, there was zero tension on some of them!

What's the difference between a factory built wheel and a hand built wheel, except that the spokes are tensioned by hand on the hand built one?

I don't know of any other difference, assuming the same hub/spokes/rim is used.

I hand-built a pair of wheels a while back and I noticed they never needed to be trued, even after months of use and hundreds of miles. To me that seems to be the difference - a hand built wheel, built to the right tension, is superior in every way, it's also just stronger. Some factory built wheels are atrocious, at least the one on the back of my Triban 3 was.
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531colin
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by 531colin »

Manc33 wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 5:35pm If you buy a factory built wheel and tension the spokes yourself (................) then haven't you essentially got the equivalent of a hand built wheel?...............
Well, I would .....
get the wheel
improve the spoke line
stress relieve
take up to final tension
then the final repeating cycle...."stress the wheel, true the wheel, balance the tension"....repeat, repeat....until you get a wheel thats completely stable (ie it doesn't move when stressed) with an acceptable balance between even tension and absolute trueness.

.....I think maybe I'm fussy....
Jamesh
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by Jamesh »

I don't think you can say all factory built wheels are bad and handbuilt ones good.

I've had perhaps 6 pairs of factory wheels and all have been ok. Dura ace c24 are going to be built to a much higher standard than brands stock wheels.

Also using the right wheel for the job is important.

Using 16/24 spokes wheels for commuting in cities when you often cannot avoid potholes is just asking for trouble.

Likewise using 36h wheels on a chaingang is asking to be dropped.
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foxyrider
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by foxyrider »

Jamesh wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 6:36pm

Also using the right wheel for the job is important.

......

Likewise using 36h wheels on a chaingang is asking to be dropped.
really? never had that issue :roll:
Convention? what's that then?
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mig
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by mig »

i think that a factory built wheel can certainly be improved, even laterally spoked front wheels to a certain extent.

can many be re-rimmed?
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531colin
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by 531colin »

mig wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 10:28pm i think that a factory built wheel can certainly be improved, even laterally spoked front wheels to a certain extent.

can many be re-rimmed?
If you stress-relieve a machine wheel, and the spokes were decent quality to begin with, they should be perfectly fine for another rim's worth of use.....
provided you can buy a rim to fit at a sensible price!
RRSODL
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by RRSODL »

531colin wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 6:30pm
Manc33 wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 5:35pm If you buy a factory built wheel and tension the spokes yourself (................) then haven't you essentially got the equivalent of a hand built wheel?...............
Well, I would .....
get the wheel
improve the spoke line
stress relieve
take up to final tension
then the final repeating cycle...."stress the wheel, true the wheel, balance the tension"....repeat, repeat....until you get a wheel thats completely stable (ie it doesn't move when stressed) with an acceptable balance between even tension and absolute trueness.

.....I think maybe I'm fussy....
Not at all, that's how it should be done IMHO.

I bought my wife a bike from Decathlon and after seen what happened to a similar bike, before the bike was ridden at all, I loosened up the spokes before adding tension - stress relieve and so on.

The wheels have been good enough for off road trails.
mig
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by mig »

531colin wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 10:44pm
mig wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 10:28pm i think that a factory built wheel can certainly be improved, even laterally spoked front wheels to a certain extent.

can many be re-rimmed?
If you stress-relieve a machine wheel, and the spokes were decent quality to begin with, they should be perfectly fine for another rim's worth of use.....
provided you can buy a rim to fit at a sensible price!
exactly.
and if you break a spoke there seems to be a myriad of different ones for the different wheels out there.
gbnz
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by gbnz »

Jamesh wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 6:36pm I don't think you can say all factory built wheels are bad and handbuilt ones good.
+1. I never had problems with run of the mill, 32 spoke factory built wheels attached to a Specialized bike on a 15 month tour. Nor any problems with the alloy frame, it's paintwork, bearings or whatever. Suppose the bike wasn't designed to carry anything more than a saddlebag, but never had an issue

In contrast, buying a "hand made" English, steel tourer from a well known "English Touring" specialist has been a disaster. It's had 14 days on tour to date, if I exclude the 2-3 day weekend" tours. There's not many parts of the bike which haven't failed. Obviously the English, Hand Made, 36 spoke, touring wheel, the paintwork, the poorly fitted headset bearings. Suppose it's cycling's equivalent to the 1970's English made car :wink:
rareposter
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by rareposter »

Jamesh wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 6:36pm I don't think you can say all factory built wheels are bad and handbuilt ones good.
^^ This.
Back in the day, it was very much a mark of your journey as a "club cyclist" the first time you got custom hand made wheels having carefully chosen the hub and rim combination and handed the spec to an artisan wheelbuilder.

Factory wheels now are proven tech, the systems and QC are in place to ensure that wheels are being churned out at consistently high quality throughout. I've seen the machines in the Hope factory at work and they're incredible to watch - every 30 minutes or so a completed wheel rolls out of the machine and it's perfect. It gets a hand check and they randomly choose wheels for QC but this idea that only some bearded bloke in shed can produce "worthy" wheels is yet another cycling myth from the 80's that refuses to die.

Across road, MTB, CX and track, I've built my own wheels, had wheels from well-known reputable builders and bought off the peg factory wheels from Mavic, American Classic and Prime (CRC own brand) and none of them have ever had any issues with spoke tension or going out of true.
gbnz wrote: 7 Jul 2022, 10:25am In contrast, buying a "hand made" English, steel tourer from a well known "English Touring" specialist has been a disaster. It's had 14 days on tour to date, if I exclude the 2-3 day weekend" tours. There's not many parts of the bike which haven't failed. Obviously the English, Hand Made, 36 spoke, touring wheel, the paintwork, the poorly fitted headset bearings. Suppose it's cycling's equivalent to the 1970's English made car :wink:
There's a lot to be said for buying mass produced - not least that the warranty and back-up service is a known quantity.
scottg
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by scottg »

rareposter wrote: 7 Jul 2022, 10:40am[snip]
Back in the day, it was very much a mark of your journey as a "club cyclist" the first time you got custom hand made wheels having carefully chosen the hub and rim combination and handed the spec to an artisan wheelbuilder.[snip]
Here in the colonies, a touring cyclist would have built their bike up from parts, including building the wheels.
Building wheels is simpler for a tourist, RBWs, aka Really Boring Wheels 36 3x, built in situ on the bike.
Using Saint Sheldon's writ as guide.

Dipl-Ing Brandt on machine built wheels is instructive.

https://yarchive.net/bike/machine_built_wheels.html
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Jamesh
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by Jamesh »

My handbuilt wheels where creaking last night.....must have been a dodgy lockdown build!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:
mig
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by mig »

Jamesh wrote: 8 Jul 2022, 8:30am My handbuilt wheels where creaking last night.....must have been a dodgy lockdown build!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:
eyeletted rim?
Jamesh
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by Jamesh »

No Reynolds solitude on Shimano r500 hubs, apina spokes.

All spokes tight and equal tension so probably just beading in???
Bonzo Banana
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Re: If you buy a factory built wheel and true it...

Post by Bonzo Banana »

If you buy a handbuilt wheel by a master wheel builder its not going to stay perfect for ever and if its a low spoke count wheel its going to need re-trueing and tensioning to the same standard perhaps in a couple of years. An over-built 36 spoke wheel can be trued and tensioned by a reasonable amateur bike mechanic to a strong standard. If you are value conscious I would definitely go for cheaper factory wheels with more spokes and do the trueing and tensioning yourself however if you have a high disposable income and always seek maximum performance then the other way makes sense. I remember many years ago buying a cheap bike for commuting which had 36 spoke wheels front and back and as supplied they soon went out of true but was amazed how strong they were after I trued and tensioned them myself and they were just basic single wall rims. I was really impressed with what I'd done however it was also a time of rapid weight loss due to cycling so the weight on the wheels was also dropping a fair bit perhaps a couple of pounds a week on average.
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