English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

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Vorpal
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 1:23pm
Vorpal wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 1:14pm Thinking about this, I'm not sure that charity does exclude malice. Plenty of people offer charity, then look down upon the recipients; tell them to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, call them lazy and worse.
I had that same thought. We predominantly now use charity about acts of charity, although a charitable interpretation is still commonly used. From the context of the Address I came to the conclusion that Lincoln was referring to the Christian virtue rather than acts of charity. That would put it as a closer opponent to malice.
I might be inclined to agree, except that Lincoln did exactly that with Native Americans. He offered them charity with one hand & reneged on payments & promises with the other. We cannot know if there was malice, as he at least did not say that they should be exterminated, as some of his contemporaries did. But he is known among Native Americans as the 2nd worst president.
Jdsk wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 1:23pm PS: How about Pooh's tautology... or is it? : - )
Ah well.... discovered by & found might not always mean the same thing, but in this case, Discovered by Pooh certainly means the same thing as Pooh found it.
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thirdcrank
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by thirdcrank »

It's not necessary to look far in published English for stuff being repeated. For long enough it was how the learned friends made a living of sorts both by increasing the wordcount and sounding a bit more impressive. eg "Last will and testament" but loads more besides. Does it matter? As usual, it depends. The Larceny Acts used to define larceny with "takes and carries away...." and in due course, both elements had to be proved. The Theft Act changed that to "appropriates" .

If it's not clear, I only mentioned one example higher up "so consequently" to suggest that would-be pedants need to ensure impeccable standards in their own writing.
==============================================
PS

Vorpal I forgot to say re Lincoln
And the history books tell it, they tell it so well
The cavalries charged and the Indians fell
The cavalries charged and the Indians died
Oh, the country was young with God on its side
Bmblbzzz
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

North Pole
Discovered by Pooh
Pooh found it
In the context it's tautology. It would be possible to interpret "discovered" as "discovered the existence of" and "found" as "found the physical presence".

Higgs boson
Discovered by Pooh
Pooh found it

But in the original context, it's simple repetition.
DaveReading
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by DaveReading »

Jdsk wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 1:13pmIt does seem to depend on which part you take first.

Jonathan
One way round, it's tautological; the other way it isn't ?
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

DaveReading wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 6:20pm
Jdsk wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 1:13pmIt does seem to depend on which part you take first.
One way round, it's tautological; the other way it isn't ?
With charity for all leaves little or no space for with malice towards none.

With malice towards none leaves space that isn't necessarily filled by with charity for all because of the possibility of neutrality, as above.

A diagram is beckoning... : - )

Jonathan
Stevek76
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Stevek76 »

'viral' speak. :?

The sort of language employed to generate clicks and shares, a kind of extreme active voice and marginally broken English. The reading equivalent of nails down a blackboard for me. :x
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Manc33
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Manc33 »

Football speak. What's said seems to come and go in and out of fashion, but recently it's been this lot:

"He's not exactly pulling up trees" (the footballer isn't that good)

"He'd run through a brick wall for the manager" (loyal player)

"He's got that in his locker" (the player has got a skill mentioned before this was said)

"Bang average" (average)
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mattheus
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by mattheus »

Manc33 wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 12:21am Football speak. What's said seems to come and go in and out of fashion, but recently it's been this lot:

"He's not exactly pulling up trees" (the footballer isn't that good)

"He'd run through a brick wall for the manager" (loyal player)

"He's got that in his locker" (the player has got a skill mentioned before this was said)

"Bang average" (average)
Valid points.
And well done for bringing the thread back on track!
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Manc33 wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 12:21am Football speak. What's said seems to come and go in and out of fashion, but recently it's been this lot:

"He's not exactly pulling up trees" (the footballer isn't that good)

"He'd run through a brick wall for the manager" (loyal player)

"He's got that in his locker" (the player has got a skill mentioned before this was said)

"Bang average" (average)
In footballspeak does early doors mean anything more specific than early?

Thanks

Jonathan

PS: I know the likely origin.
Stevek76
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Stevek76 »

That sort of thing is common in sportsing speak generally, though the contrived phrases vary from sport to sport.
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Manc33
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Manc33 »

Some of the football ones don't "do my head in" because they are funny:

"That's the bitter icing on an already foul tasting cake"

(this was uttered when some team conceded their 4th or 5th goal right near the end of a game).

Or just listen to Ray Hudson commentating on Messi. :lol:
Jdsk wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 9:50amIn footballspeak does early doors mean anything more specific than early?
Nope, just early would do. What gets me is how these phrases come into fashion and a lot of people say it, then they vanish to be replaced by new stuff.
When two cyclists get married, they should throw anodized cable crimps instead of confetti.
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Manc33 wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 5:40pm
Jdsk wrote: 6 Jul 2022, 9:50amIn footballspeak does early doors mean anything more specific than early?
Nope, just early would do. What gets me is how these phrases come into fashion and a lot of people say it, then they vanish to be replaced by new stuff.
Thankyou

Yes, the changes in language are fascinating. The very fast ones seem to have a lot in common with fashion in other areas of life.

Jonathan
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