Annoying noises from low tension in non-drive side rear spokes

[jackt]

I have a handbuilt rear wheel that makes an annoying clicking/cracking sound when I pedal.

I've traced the cause to the low tension on the non-drive side spokes. These move against each other, and have caused a certain amount of fretting on the spoke, which only increases the noise. The low tension of these spokes is the result of the relatively large amount of dish in the wheel - it's a 32 spoke rim-brake wheel with Suzue RS hub, which I believe is 11 speed compatible (hence the large amount dish?), though my bike is currently 10 speed.

If I could rewind time I'd chose a different hub, perhaps with 8 or 9 gears instead of 10. But I am where I am. The noise is really quite annoying so am looking for a solution which might be:

* Increasing tension on all the spokes. This risks damaging the rim, if the drive side tension is too great. The rim is a Velo Orange Voyager

* Wiring and soldering the non-drive side spokes so they can't move against one another.

* Trying a different rim, perhaps with offset spoke holes, but this is an easier said than found.

* Starting over with a new hub. Which one?

Any suggestions appreciated.

[531colin]

What is the distance from the dropout to the left spoke flange?

[jackt]

Hi Colin, not the easiest measurement to take, but 26mm with steel rule - that's the horizontal distance. I can confirm later with a micrometer.

[531colin]

It looked close in the photos I saw.

For comparison, Shimano are about 30mm on 130mm hubs, and 35 on 135mm

Now a 135mm, 8/9/10 speed Shimano wheel gives an almost sensible tension differential, I build to 120kgf driveside vs. 80 the other.
A 130mm 8/9/10 speed Shimano gives more tension differential, ie worse

Compared to that, on yours both flanges are moved to the left.

Long ago, somebody at Spa bought some large flange hubs because they "looked retro" . Unfortunately they had the left flange almost right up against the dropout, like yours. I gave him the choice of send them back or build them yourself, and they duly went back.

[pete75]

Hi Colin, not the easiest measurement to take, but 26mm with steel rule - that's the horizontal distance. I can confirm later with a micrometer. Screenshot 2022-07-07 at 14.13.54.png

Now that does look a fine hub.

[jackt]

Thanks Colin. I have also seen the Bitex 11sp road hubs which have a higher drive side flange, intended to address the dish issue inherent in 11sp. Do you have an opinion on those? I suppose the frame could be cold set to 135mm to use an MTB hub, I think I have an unused LX that would do.

[531colin]

......... higher drive side flange, intended to address the dish issue inherent in 11sp. Do you have an opinion on those? .....

I do have an opinion, but I think the forum software might censor it.....I'll try "micturating in the wind" see if thats acceptable

Setting it to 135mm is a better option, then you can use a road disc hub, or an MTB.....except I'm out of date, I don't know if MTB and road 11 speed cassettes are the same width....must be i guess? Although LX won't be 11sp?....basically, the wider OLN you use, and the smaller number of sprockets, the better wheel you will get......assuming you avoid pretty hubs with the left flange too close to the dropout.

Edit....yup, it censored it....meanings still there though

Curiously enough, Axel just posted all the maths about that high flange business....or rather altering number of spoke crossings on the different sides.....an essentially similar but pointless exercise where the flanges are the same size, but the spokes emerge at differential heights up the identical flanges.......but we are now in highly esoteric wheelbuilding mythology! viewtopic.php?t=147410&start=30

[531colin]

Hi Colin, not the easiest measurement to take, but 26mm with steel rule - that's the horizontal distance. I can confirm later with a micrometer. Screenshot 2022-07-07 at 14.13.54.png

Now that does look a fine hub.

See?....pretty hub.....like moths to a lamp!

[jackt]

The Bitex hub I mentioned earlier appears to be 27mm from NDS dropout to flange. So no great improvement there. HOWEVER, the DS flange is 12mm larger in diameter than the NDS. I have no way of telling whether this differential is sufficient to make for acceptable differential in spoke tension.

[531colin]

........... I have no way of telling whether this differential is sufficient to make for acceptable differential in spoke tension..................

Take your existing wheel. Look at the different sides of the wheel, and the difference between the "bracing angle" of the driveside and non driveside spokes.......to get the tensions the same, that bracing angle needs to be the same both sides.....and to get the bracing angle the same needs a massive flange...maybe 160mm like a regular brake disc? Thats just a guess without a wheel in my hand.

[jackt]

........... I have no way of telling whether this differential is sufficient to make for acceptable differential in spoke tension..................

Take your existing wheel. Look at the different sides of the wheel, and the difference between the "bracing angle" of the driveside and non driveside spokes.......to get the tensions the same, that bracing angle needs to be the same both sides.....and to get the bracing angle the same needs a massive flange...maybe 160mm like a regular brake disc? Thats just a guess without a wheel in my hand.

Yes, to equalise the tensions, but I was asking whether it was enough for an *acceptable* difference in spoke tension - whatever that is. For my purposes, I just want a wheel that doesn't make a clicking noise when I pedal.

[531colin]

My instinct is its nothing like half big enough.
To me, an acceptable ratio of tensions is 120 vs 80 driveside to NDS. ...thats 3 : 2 ratio.
You have got the flange offset in the drawing, now you need somebody who can do the maths......but it isn't me.

I remember long ago Chris Juden recounting how he had bolted(?) a big flange onto a hub....he can do maths.....so can Axel....

[iandusud]

Building it with radial spokes on the non-drive side would eliminate the fretting, but of course wouldn't do anything to reduce the imbalance in tension between the two sides. I do however wonder if the drive side spokes are as tight as they might be.

[jackt]

Building it with radial spokes on the non-drive side would eliminate the fretting, but of course wouldn't do anything to reduce the imbalance in tension between the two sides. I do however wonder if the drive side spokes are as tight as they might be.

Yes, that's one possibility. The manufacturer states "We recommend 110 kgf for these rims. You should try not to exceed 115 kgf."

[scottg]

Too bad Bitex doesn't make a 7 speed freehub, just as a spare.
135mm, 7 speed with A23 rear OC rim, ahhh the good old days.

Curiously there is a 6 speed freehub.

https://www.fyxation.com/collections/si ... cement-hub