Gravel road riding

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Cugel wrote: 9 Aug 2022, 2:51pm
From time to time, the National Resources Wales calls in the gravel road menders. They also call in the logging machines too, though. The latter churn up the roads and the former attempt to mend them - an ever evolving scenario. They have a Special Batrachoid that inspects the roads for faults, recommending the movement of rocks from here to there, as well as the replacement of some mud where appropriate.

Cugel
I'm glad to see he (or she?) is wearing yellow – almost hi-viz! But isn't a helmet mandatory PPE for forestry workers?
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foxyrider
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by foxyrider »

Cugel wrote: 9 Aug 2022, 11:41am
What kind of punctures were you getting on that beautiful track? Were they penetrations or cuts; and how big?

Cugel
When i was in Sweden 3 years ago parts of my route were only accesible by 'dirt' roads which its fair to say are well maintained for the most part. My problem came when tarmac turned to gravel unexpectedly, i got two flats in as many kilometres from sharp edged stones as best i could tell. Maybe the fully camping laden bike, small wheels and 25c tyres didn't help but even so, the rest of the trip i kept off the lanes as much as possible, the actual tarmac roads are immaculate until you get to a bigger town like Kolmar then its just like being in Blighty!
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by Jon in Sweden »

foxyrider wrote: 9 Aug 2022, 9:57pm
Cugel wrote: 9 Aug 2022, 11:41am
What kind of punctures were you getting on that beautiful track? Were they penetrations or cuts; and how big?

Cugel
When i was in Sweden 3 years ago parts of my route were only accesible by 'dirt' roads which its fair to say are well maintained for the most part. My problem came when tarmac turned to gravel unexpectedly, i got two flats in as many kilometres from sharp edged stones as best i could tell. Maybe the fully camping laden bike, small wheels and 25c tyres didn't help but even so, the rest of the trip i kept off the lanes as much as possible, the actual tarmac roads are immaculate until you get to a bigger town like Kolmar then its just like being in Blighty!
It is certainly something to consider. I'm still learning the area and spend a bit of time plotting out my routes, trying to figure out what kind of surface I'm going to be riding on.

I have a lovely Mercian Audax bike on 23c tyres that I never take off the tarmac. If there is a chance of some dirt road, I have an Orbea gravel bike on slicks and if it's just gravel riding, I have a Cannondale on 38mm tyres.

Some of the larger roads have to be ridden to be believed. They are so, so smooth. I can't imagine that there are better roads anywhere in the world.
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by Jon in Sweden »

Benz3ne wrote: 9 Aug 2022, 10:09am
That is beautiful. Would you host me so I can experience it for myself? :lol:
As it happens, we are looking to establish a swimming/cycling focused holiday let in the next year or two. The idea being that I can supply comprehensive mapping of the best swimming spots, road routes and trails for cycling and a selection of well maintained bikes. The area has so much potential for tourism from the UK, but most people have never heard of Sweden for holidays, let alone been.

I swim every day here, I cycle for miles and miles without seeing anyone. It's often properly snowy and cold in winter, yet the average daytime high on our 8 day forecast is just a smidge under 30c.

I was fishing with my daughter yesterday afternoon at the lake in our village. This was our view (a gentle 5 minute cycle with an 8 year old to get there):

Image
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by Jon in Sweden »

Cugel wrote: 9 Aug 2022, 11:41am

What kind of punctures were you getting on that beautiful track? Were they penetrations or cuts; and how big?

Cugel
In all honesty, I think that it was probably operator error. I had the rear tyre set at 50psi, which for me at 106-107kg just isn't enough.

Both sets of punctures were snake bites. I have since upped the rear end pressure to 70psi and that seems to have helped.

Some of the tracks are mtb only, but it's impossible to tell when plotting a route which is which.
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Cugel
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by Cugel »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 6:50am
Cugel wrote: 9 Aug 2022, 11:41am

What kind of punctures were you getting on that beautiful track? Were they penetrations or cuts; and how big?

Cugel
In all honesty, I think that it was probably operator error. I had the rear tyre set at 50psi, which for me at 106-107kg just isn't enough.

Both sets of punctures were snake bites. I have since upped the rear end pressure to 70psi and that seems to have helped.

Some of the tracks are mtb only, but it's impossible to tell when plotting a route which is which.
The snakebites! When I were a lad, 294 years ago, we all rode about on 21mm (or even 19mm) tyres & tubes that would snakebite at the least little pothole edge. The only way to stop them was to blow the tyres up to 120psi, which rattled any teeth fillings loose in no time. :-)

These days the fat tyres at least allow us to have pressures that resist snakebite without the teeth coming loose. Also. there is the tubeless option ......

As with a lot of new! improved! marketing of new tech, I was sceptical of tubeless for bicycles when it was first a thing. But I tried some nevertheless and gradually became a convert. Snakebites aren't possible (no tube) and the sticky liquid one puts into the tyres deals with any but the most savage punctures. You don't even notice the thorns and glass bits until you change a tyre and see them sticking through to the inside.

At one time, lads blew up their tyres to the maximum value embossed on their sidewalls by the manufacturers. These days there's lots of better info sources about tyre pressures albeit not all agreeing with each other. Still, here's a couple you might find useful:

https://help.huntbikewheels.com/support ... -pressures

https://www.renehersecycles.com/the-sci ... alculator/

*****************
Another poster mentions the sharp-edged gravel to be found in some locations. In Britain it's the flinty areas that seem the worst for this, as flint breaks to leave sharp edges. In other locales, such sharp rock seems absent. NW England, where I used to live, sees none of the sharp rock; neither does West Wales, even on the rough tracks of the forestry regions. I thought slate shards would be a problem but Welsh slate generally seems to break down into stuff that has edges but rather crumbly edges, soon smoothed by use and weather.

So, it might be worth checking the nature of the gravel used in those Swedish forests you're now enjoying. Little sharp gravels won't bother the huge tyres on logging machines & trucks but our bicycle tyres are flimsy things, easily cut.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Nearholmer
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by Nearholmer »

Having only recently changed from tubed touring tyres, to tubeless gravel tyres (small knobbles), I am a complete convert for off-road use. More comfortable at the same size, and better traction, because of the combination of greater flexibility and lower pressure.

I’m still not overly happy with the same tyres on road though.
Benz3ne
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by Benz3ne »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 6:48am
Benz3ne wrote: 9 Aug 2022, 10:09am
That is beautiful. Would you host me so I can experience it for myself? :lol:
As it happens, we are looking to establish a swimming/cycling focused holiday let in the next year or two. The idea being that I can supply comprehensive mapping of the best swimming spots, road routes and trails for cycling and a selection of well maintained bikes. The area has so much potential for tourism from the UK, but most people have never heard of Sweden for holidays, let alone been.

I swim every day here, I cycle for miles and miles without seeing anyone. It's often properly snowy and cold in winter, yet the average daytime high on our 8 day forecast is just a smidge under 30c.

I was fishing with my daughter yesterday afternoon at the lake in our village. This was our view (a gentle 5 minute cycle with an 8 year old to get there):

Image
Well if you need anyone to try it out, I’ll gladly take that “burden” 😁
It looks a beautiful place, that’s for sure. As someone who is a little more than ‘invested’ in amateur photography, it looks like an excellent scenario for that too.
pwa
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by pwa »

Cugel wrote: 8 Aug 2022, 12:43pm
Benz3ne wrote: 8 Aug 2022, 8:43am
Croeso i Cymru :D I, too, am in West Wales (Swansea, to be more precise) and it's certainly got a nice expanse of forestry, bridleways, etc.
My move to a gravel bike has proven to be worthwhile (read: fun) too.
Perhaps we shouldn't broadcast just how good it is out here for the cyclists of every ilk & tittle? They'll come flocking, you see! Just now, I think of Fforest Brechfa as all mine as I rarely see anyone else, despite being in it for at least a couple of hours every day walking the dogs (and now cycling).

Yesterday I saw half a dozen folk around Abergorlech, at the start of my gravel section in the ride. Once I was 400 yards up the track, I saw no one else until I got to the top of the Fforest at Waun Post-Gwyn, where the red MTB trail starts and finishes, 9km later. One bloke sat in his car in the small car park there.

I'd ridden to Abergorlech through Llanybydder, Rhydcymerau and Llansawel on the road; and back down through Llanybydder on the road from the end of the gravel section. Away from Llanybydder, which is quite populous, I saw no more than half a dozen (moving) cars! Perfek cycling country, eh? :-)

Cugel
We were walking around Brechfa last week and it was quiet. Few walkers and even fewer cyclists. But part of the reason might be people turning up at well publicised official car parks and finding that, in peak season with the schools on holiday, you are greeted with "No unauthorised access" signs due to logging. Keeper's Lodge car park had its only way into the forest closed by such signs, with logging happening just beyond. And at Abergorlech major walking and MTB trails had been officially closed off due to a landslide, which they seemed in no rush to fix. We re-routed around that closure and eventually came to what we took to be the landslide, a minor affair easily sidestepped. We had a nice walk, no thanks to the folk who run the site.

We had some good walks but it all left me feeling that forestry is not the most reliable setting to look for a trek, on bike or on foot. You never know whether you will find logging blocking your path two thirds around a long circuit with no easy diversion possible. A horse riding lady we spoke to told us of such and experience, with two children also on ponies, and having to go back the way they had come due to logging blocking their way. It added miles onto their ride.

More local to me, I sometimes find logging has resulted in signs across Public Rights of Way declaring "No unauthorised access", to which my reply (spoken to myself) is always that I am authorised by it being a PROW, so no problem then. Logging contractors often seem to disregard the public's need to pass. I feel that we are just a nuisance to them. And Natural Resources Wales, when it comes to forestry, don't have the resources to make sure their estates are the recreational resources they claim them to be.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by Bmblbzzz »

What's the law on forestry activities closing ROW? I presume they can apply for a licence and will easily get it, just as a group of residents can get a road closure order for a street party.
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by Jon in Sweden »

pwa wrote: 11 Aug 2022, 5:30am
We were walking around Brechfa last week and it was quiet. Few walkers and even fewer cyclists. But part of the reason might be people turning up at well publicised official car parks and finding that, in peak season with the schools on holiday, you are greeted with "No unauthorised access" signs due to logging. Keeper's Lodge car park had its only way into the forest closed by such signs, with logging happening just beyond. And at Abergorlech major walking and MTB trails had been officially closed off due to a landslide, which they seemed in no rush to fix. We re-routed around that closure and eventually came to what we took to be the landslide, a minor affair easily sidestepped. We had a nice walk, no thanks to the folk who run the site.

We had some good walks but it all left me feeling that forestry is not the most reliable setting to look for a trek, on bike or on foot. You never know whether you will find logging blocking your path two thirds around a long circuit with no easy diversion possible. A horse riding lady we spoke to told us of such and experience, with two children also on ponies, and having to go back the way they had come due to logging blocking their way. It added miles onto their ride.

More local to me, I sometimes find logging has resulted in signs across Public Rights of Way declaring "No unauthorised access", to which my reply (spoken to myself) is always that I am authorised by it being a PROW, so no problem then. Logging contractors often seem to disregard the public's need to pass. I feel that we are just a nuisance to them. And Natural Resources Wales, when it comes to forestry, don't have the resources to make sure their estates are the recreational resources they claim them to be.
I am a forestry harvesting contractor and have worked fairly extensively on public access sites, though not in Wales.

It is ever so tricky to manage the public, and every land owner and organisation will do it slightly differently. I've worked quite a bit for the National Trust, who are extremely reluctant to ever fully close a site, which means that the inconvenience to the public can often last far longer than it should. The Woodland Trust seem a bit better for being willing to close off sections, which allows us to work quickly and without having to worry about people coming through our work sites.

We always try to offer alternative routes, but sometimes that's not possible. A few years ago we cleared about 400t of badly diseased ash from the Exe Valley Way between Exeter and Tiverton. There was no alternative route that we could offer. There was no way to keep the PROW open. We applied to the council for a closure and it was granted.

For the most part, forestry works only happen very infrequently and don't last that long. Normal forestry practice in conifer in Wales would be that it's planted, left for 18-20 years, thinned (30% of crop removed), thinned again at 30-35 years old and then clearfelled at 45-50 years old. Only three harvesting interventions in 45-50 years.

I appreciate that it's a pain in the backside though for people that want to use the forests. I see it from both sides.

It's worth noting also that NRW have a very poor reputation in terms of managing their forests. They are extensively deconifering their land and not really properly replanting it.
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Cugel
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by Cugel »

Nearholmer wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 3:47pm Having only recently changed from tubed touring tyres, to tubeless gravel tyres (small knobbles), I am a complete convert for off-road use. More comfortable at the same size, and better traction, because of the combination of greater flexibility and lower pressure.

I’m still not overly happy with the same tyres on road though.
What is it about tubeless tyre use on the road that's making you less than fully happy, then? I've used 30mm tubeless on a winter bike for six years now, without punctures and with good performance, judged against those riding companions still with the tubes. Tubeless does seem to give good rolling resistance (all other things being more or less equal) and the lower pressures possible do add to comfort.

Are you getting punctures still? Are you bothered about the mess if you get a bad one?

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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Cugel
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by Cugel »

pwa wrote: 11 Aug 2022, 5:30am
We were walking around Brechfa last week and it was quiet. Few walkers and even fewer cyclists. But part of the reason might be people turning up at well publicised official car parks and finding that, in peak season with the schools on holiday, you are greeted with "No unauthorised access" signs due to logging. Keeper's Lodge car park had its only way into the forest closed by such signs, with logging happening just beyond. And at Abergorlech major walking and MTB trails had been officially closed off due to a landslide, which they seemed in no rush to fix. We re-routed around that closure and eventually came to what we took to be the landslide, a minor affair easily sidestepped. We had a nice walk, no thanks to the folk who run the site.

We had some good walks but it all left me feeling that forestry is not the most reliable setting to look for a trek, on bike or on foot. You never know whether you will find logging blocking your path two thirds around a long circuit with no easy diversion possible. A horse riding lady we spoke to told us of such and experience, with two children also on ponies, and having to go back the way they had come due to logging blocking their way. It added miles onto their ride.

More local to me, I sometimes find logging has resulted in signs across Public Rights of Way declaring "No unauthorised access", to which my reply (spoken to myself) is always that I am authorised by it being a PROW, so no problem then. Logging contractors often seem to disregard the public's need to pass. I feel that we are just a nuisance to them. And Natural Resources Wales, when it comes to forestry, don't have the resources to make sure their estates are the recreational resources they claim them to be.
That's not my experience at all. In daily dog walks of often many miles we've never been stopped by the various forestry operations we come across from going across or through their operations, in nearly four years - well over a thousand visits to most parts of the forest.

The logging and track-mending fellows are more than happy to let us past, stopping their machines and often keen to have a chat. (They often work alone all day up there). Fallen trees across the tracks are usually cleared quickly, although there were some delays after the recent bad storms when large swathes of tree were flattened by that strong NE wind. The Natural Resources Wales vans patrol the forest looking for problems to fix and whenever we stop to chat to one of them, they're very informative and helpful, giving us details of the scheduled fixes to things like tree blockages and landslide issues.

The thing about forests is that they do forestry work in 'em! We wouldn't have the gravel tracks et al if there were no commercial forestry establishing them all. Such places are not solely for walkers and cyclists to enjoy .... although the amount of effort and money that Natural Resources Wales puts in to make facilities for walking and cycling are significant. No entry fee either.

Perhaps you were hoping for a Center Parcs experience? :-)

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
pwa
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by pwa »

Cugel wrote: 11 Aug 2022, 8:56am
pwa wrote: 11 Aug 2022, 5:30am
We were walking around Brechfa last week and it was quiet. Few walkers and even fewer cyclists. But part of the reason might be people turning up at well publicised official car parks and finding that, in peak season with the schools on holiday, you are greeted with "No unauthorised access" signs due to logging. Keeper's Lodge car park had its only way into the forest closed by such signs, with logging happening just beyond. And at Abergorlech major walking and MTB trails had been officially closed off due to a landslide, which they seemed in no rush to fix. We re-routed around that closure and eventually came to what we took to be the landslide, a minor affair easily sidestepped. We had a nice walk, no thanks to the folk who run the site.

We had some good walks but it all left me feeling that forestry is not the most reliable setting to look for a trek, on bike or on foot. You never know whether you will find logging blocking your path two thirds around a long circuit with no easy diversion possible. A horse riding lady we spoke to told us of such and experience, with two children also on ponies, and having to go back the way they had come due to logging blocking their way. It added miles onto their ride.

More local to me, I sometimes find logging has resulted in signs across Public Rights of Way declaring "No unauthorised access", to which my reply (spoken to myself) is always that I am authorised by it being a PROW, so no problem then. Logging contractors often seem to disregard the public's need to pass. I feel that we are just a nuisance to them. And Natural Resources Wales, when it comes to forestry, don't have the resources to make sure their estates are the recreational resources they claim them to be.
That's not my experience at all. In daily dog walks of often many miles we've never been stopped by the various forestry operations we come across from going across or through their operations, in nearly four years - well over a thousand visits to most parts of the forest.

The logging and track-mending fellows are more than happy to let us past, stopping their machines and often keen to have a chat. (They often work alone all day up there). Fallen trees across the tracks are usually cleared quickly, although there were some delays after the recent bad storms when large swathes of tree were flattened by that strong NE wind. The Natural Resources Wales vans patrol the forest looking for problems to fix and whenever we stop to chat to one of them, they're very informative and helpful, giving us details of the scheduled fixes to things like tree blockages and landslide issues.

The thing about forests is that they do forestry work in 'em! We wouldn't have the gravel tracks et al if there were no commercial forestry establishing them all. Such places are not solely for walkers and cyclists to enjoy .... although the amount of effort and money that Natural Resources Wales puts in to make facilities for walking and cycling are significant. No entry fee either.

:lol: Perhaps you were hoping for a Center Parcs experience? :-)

Cugel
:lol:
No, I had to go to CP with work once, and it was my idea of hell.

I was just disappointed that NRW and the forestry contractors could not get their timing right and make sure that every flagship path was open for the school holidays. The Keepers Lodge car park, one of three major portals for Brechfa, had one sign saying "Welcome back", then just beyond it several signs saying "No unauthorised access", so effectively "Go away because we are shut". In the school holidays! We had that experience the day after going to one of the other three main gateways, Abergorlech, and finding a similar situation with three marked walking trails, the two longer ones effectively cut down to next to nothing. Other visitors had ripped down plastic tape and pushed back barriers trying to keep them out. It was not very welcoming. We did our own thing, in spite of NRW.

Incidentally, the bridleway that goes north-east from just opposite the Keepers Lodge car park seemed to me do-able with an MTB but perhaps a bit tricky on a gravel bike. And it fords a stream, which meant a small hop for us, mid summer, but which might be a more serious obstacle after rain. It comes out at a nice lane at a place called Brynmadog. I had a go at some of the vegetation with the secateurs I tend to carry on walks :D
Last edited by pwa on 12 Aug 2022, 12:02pm, edited 3 times in total.
rjb
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Re: Gravel road riding

Post by rjb »

Down in somerset we are blessed with access to gravel and dirt roads. On the somerset levels on West Sedgemoor there is a 5 mile drove road across the moor. A few potholes which fill with rainwater in the wet season. Heres the west sedgemoor Drove from Stathe which rejoins the road to North Curry at Helland.
https://goo.gl/maps/KqdfmGySBXeKkVLg8
And On the other side of the ridge a drove road runs from Knapp bridge to new road which was a previous road before the new one was built.
Up on the quantock hills there are several tracks to explore with far reaching views across the Bristol Channel towards Cugels land. https://www.trailforks.com/region/the-quantock-hills/ :wink:
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
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