Grant Shapps panders to The Mail

fastpedaller
Posts: 3433
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Grant Chapps panders to The Mail

Post by fastpedaller »

Albrecht wrote: 8 Aug 2022, 12:00pm
fastpedaller wrote: 8 Aug 2022, 9:43amHmm - So a generalisation again - I'll need to be careful of riding my Spa steel tourer when I'm wearing lycra, after all the bike has drop bars, so I'm racer :roll:
Thing about generalisations is, generally speaking they are true. And having just watched the Alleycat promo video above, it sort of confirms it.

I stand by my comment. It's a particular type of aggressive, self-centred male that spoil things for everyone. I don't, however, know if you are one or responsible rider. They almost got us barred from towpaths for using them as their private velodrome.
cycle tramp wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 8:33pmYou can give them my name of Slattibartfast if you like, but I don't know if they'll believe you.
No worries, I was going to blame Steve, not you.

I went out to buy some victuals mid-topic (that's "food" to any of you who haven't swallowed a legal dictionary, although I am sure someone will correct me to say it's not) and some kid was riding down the white line of the road on one of those illegal electric mini-scooters, smartphone in hand, swipping through his message. I literally watched him swipe 2, 3, 4 ... as he went down the road.

What's the point of any discussion about laws?

1.5m equals right in front of the bonnet badge on our streets but, hey, I could become a one person, mobile 12mph speed zone. Most car drivers seriously haven't got the memo about the new Highway Code priorities yet. They're still working on the principle of whoever's vehicle is bigger.
Here we go again.... "most car drivers"
I can assure you I don't ride a bike like the Alleycats - and never have. Indeed in my youth I gained a cycle safety award. Anyway the point is you can't always judge a book by its cover (or indeed a cyclist by the clothes he wears or the bike he rides). Crikey if you started on his skin colour you'd maybe be in trouble. I hope you are never on a Jury (I had that experience 10 years ago), as I'm sure you'd know the verdict before you sat down on the first day, just by looking at the defendant!
Stevek76
Posts: 2084
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Grant Shapps panders to The Mail

Post by Stevek76 »

Jaywalking laws are a feature of a very car sick society. It's hard to unpick whether they are specifically responsible for more pedestrian deaths but they are certainly a symptom of countries with the worst records for road safety. They are certainly not responsible for saving lives in the same way that no other victim blaming tat that dumps responsibility on the most vulnerable has done.

The same mindset has given the Americans brightly coloured flags to wave while using the crosswalk and has made them considerably more at risk of pedestrians and cyclists being corralled off the roads to make life easier for automated motor vehicles.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Albrecht
Posts: 75
Joined: 26 Jul 2022, 8:47pm

Re: Grant Chapps panders to The Mail

Post by Albrecht »

Stevek76 wrote: 8 Aug 2022, 10:09pmJaywalking laws are a feature of a very car sick society. It's hard to unpick whether they are specifically responsible for more pedestrian deaths but they are certainly a symptom of countries with the worst records for road safety.
Erm, Japan?

You may be confusing correlation with causality. Bavaria is really strict on it too and I would not describe theirs as a "sick car culture".

Japan's an amazing place to cycle not just because of the quality of road surfaces etc, but because the drivers are so law abiding and respectful of others. It's partly cultural but also legal due to a far stricter application of traffic hierarchy. Bicycles have priority at junctions. Took me a long time to trust drivers wouldn't do what British or American drivers do and I was regularly out classed by school girl cyclists blithely shooting across junctions chatting together, without a second thought or care in the world. They ruled the road and no one forced them out of the way.

Wonderful to see all the fit young mums doing school runs with 2 or 3 kids on mamacharis instead of 4x4s. Again without any fear of being ploughed down doing so.

Penalty is a fine up to 20,000 yen (£120) but, mostly, it works on social pressure.
fastpedaller wrote: 8 Aug 2022, 9:31pmHere we go again.... "most car drivers"
Who do you want to commission, YouGov, Ipsos MORI, Populus ...? I'll give you a £100 bet that 99% of drivers can't explain the new hierarchy of road users, let alone apply them in their daily driving.

Has anyone seen any change in traffic behaviour since whenever it was brought about? Who forcing them all through re-education camps (which sound like a good idea to me, every driver has to do a weekend refresher on the current and latest road traffic laws once a year).

Do you want me to keep a diary of how many times I am hooted at to move, even when I have the right of way? Sorry, "priority".

[racism deleted by moderator]
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20697
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Grant Chapps panders to The Mail

Post by Vorpal »

Albrecht wrote: 8 Aug 2022, 11:14pm
Erm, Japan?

You may be confusing correlation with causality. Bavaria is really strict on it too and I would not describe theirs as a "sick car culture".

Japan's an amazing place to cycle not just because of the quality of road surfaces etc, but because the drivers are so law abiding and respectful of others. It's partly cultural but also legal due to a far stricter application of traffic hierarchy. Bicycles have priority at junctions. Took me a long time to trust drivers wouldn't do what British or American drivers do and I was regularly out classed by school girl cyclists blithely shooting across junctions chatting together, without a second thought or care in the world. They ruled the road and no one forced them out of the way.

Wonderful to see all the fit young mums doing school runs with 2 or 3 kids on mamacharis instead of 4x4s. Again without any fear of being ploughed down doing so.

Penalty is a fine up to 20,000 yen (£120) but, mostly, it works on social pressure.
Japan's jaywalking laws are more a product of conformist traffic culture than car-sickness, so I would consider that an outlier.

As for Bavaria, 'jaywalking' means crossing against the lights, and the penalty is negligible (5 or 10 €?). Also,
jaywalking laws eu.jpg
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Albrecht
Posts: 75
Joined: 26 Jul 2022, 8:47pm

Re: Grant Chapps panders to The Mail

Post by Albrecht »

Vorpal wrote: 9 Aug 2022, 8:29amJapan's jaywalking laws are more a product of conformist traffic culture than car-sickness, so I would consider that an outlier.

As for Bavaria, 'jaywalking' means crossing against the lights, and the penalty is negligible (5 or 10 €?). Also,
I don't think it's a question of "conformism", that's bordering on an fallacious & racist generalisation. Law abiding? Perhaps. I'd suggest it's more about well practised respect for others and a higher value for the general order or harmony (wa) within society, versus the self-centeredness in the West (I want to cross and I'll do it when & where I like).

I mean, if you look at that graphic, surely the only conclusion possible from it, is that Protestantism leads to less people being killed in road traffic accidents. [/joke]

It says, "people killed in road traffic accidents", not pedestrians run over while jaywalking.

What are you suggesting the causes were?

Do we have figures for "pedestrians run over in countries with jawalking laws versus pedestrians run over in countries with no jawalking laws"? Even then, you'd still have to factor in other influences.

Bavarians are a big joke, even in Germany, about how they follow the rules. You'll see them standing by the curb even though there are no cars on road at all.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20697
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Grant Shapps panders to The Mail

Post by Vorpal »

Studies on social information suggest that Japanese pedestrians conform to traffic rules better than Europeans, especially in the presence of other pedestrians. Perhaps my statement was too general, but it is evidence based, not bias.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5367276/
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
whiskywheels
Posts: 88
Joined: 1 Aug 2008, 5:41pm

Re: Grant Shapps panders to The Mail

Post by whiskywheels »

Revolution wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 11:00am https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62444889
This country is being run by populists who create policy that plays well with The Mail and avoids making any decisions that may be uncomfortable for that rag's readers to stomach.
Yes, it's just more hatred, bigotry, and ignorance towards cyclists. This neatly distracts from more important issues.

For example, each year on average there are around 400 pedestrians killed by motorists, and over 5000 seriously injured by them.

100 cyclists killed by motorists each year, and 3000 seriously injured.

Given that there are, on average, 2 pedestrians killed by cyclists each year, and 50 seriously injured, it's bizarre that this is a priority for government to address.

Many motorists get minor sentences (well below the max) for killing or maiming pedestrians and cyclists. So what is the point of increasing the penalties for cyclists? It's not made any difference to the behaviour of motorists, and won't to cyclists either.

At a time when we need to be encouraging cycling use, and making it safer, Shapps choses to use his Daily Hate newspaper column to tell us what he's doing about the menace of cyclists, he's not "pandering to the Mail" he's writing his regular column for them. And why? Hatred, bigotry, and ignorance.

The priority should be to do something about the high number of pedestrians (mostly using the pavement at the time), who are killed by motorists.

Search for the statistics if you didn't already know this, which is what Shapps should have done before coming out with his idiotic statement.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Grant Shapps panders to The Mail

Post by thirdcrank »

In one of the threads in the aftermath of the Alliston case, I suggested that the government would present these new offences as tidying up.

I think it's important to note how the mechanisms of legislation operate at Westminster. Very slowly is one feature.

So, the review of deaths caused by cyclists linked higher up was published in March 2018 and no obvious action has been taken since. Perhaps inaction speaks louder than words.

Another current thread has pointed towards the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/20 ... ts/enacted

It's only necessary to skim the table of contents to appreciate that this is a legislative rag bag covering subjects as diverse as "The Police Covenant" ; extraction of information from electronic devices; a code of practice for non-criminal hate incidents. And so much more.

The relevant bit to this thread is Part 5 Road Traffic

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/20 ... /5/enacted

In particular, ss 86 and 87 create two new "causing injury by driving" offences.

Had the government any intention of legislating to create new cycling offences, this was surely the opportunity.
simonhill
Posts: 5211
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 11:28am
Location: Essex

Re: Grant Shapps panders to The Mail

Post by simonhill »

Sorry if this has already been posted, but this is the Cycling UK response.
https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/trans ... fnANws6WSU
User avatar
freiston
Posts: 1500
Joined: 6 Oct 2013, 10:20am
Location: Coventry

Re: Grant Shapps panders to The Mail

Post by freiston »

simonhill wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 8:10pm Sorry if this has already been posted, but this is the Cycling UK response.
https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/trans ... fnANws6WSU
A good response, well argued and backed up with facts.

The Daily Fail, its readers and politicians keen to manipulate a crowd will not be interested. The paper and the politicians because it doesn't serve their purpose and the readers because it would cause uncomfortable cognitive dissonance to even read to it - and besides, it is far too long and mentally challenging for a great deal of them to bother with reading it.
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Grant Shapps panders to The Mail

Post by thirdcrank »

freiston wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 9:59pm
simonhill wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 8:10pm Sorry if this has already been posted, but this is the Cycling UK response.
https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/trans ... fnANws6WSU
A good response, well argued and backed up with facts.

The Daily Fail, its readers and politicians keen to manipulate a crowd will not be interested. The paper and the politicians because it doesn't serve their purpose and the readers because it would cause uncomfortable cognitive dissonance to even read to it - and besides, it is far too long and mentally challenging for a great deal of them to bother with reading it. (My bold)
simonhill- thanks for the link

freiston I largely agree with your analysis but I think the bit I've highlighted is particularly significant. Short attention spans are not specific to readers of particular newspapers or sections of the public or gnats. Tucked away in that article are requests to take action by replying to consultations. In particular, there's one right at the end requesting replies to the Sentencing Council's consultation on sentencing guidelines for motoring offences. Hands up everybody who got that far.

edited to correct wrong attributions, with my apologies
Last edited by thirdcrank on 16 Aug 2022, 2:40pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
freiston
Posts: 1500
Joined: 6 Oct 2013, 10:20am
Location: Coventry

Re: Grant Shapps panders to The Mail

Post by freiston »

thirdcrank - I think you've mixed simonhill and me up in your reply - he posted the link and I gave an opinion (analysis seems a bit too grand for what was off the top of my head).
Yeah, not just Daily Fail readers but the Daily Fail has a certain style of prose and the paper must appeal to its readers for not just content but style too. There are other papers that have styles requiring even less intellectual effort, for want of a better phrase. There are also, I'm sure, times when very intellectually capable people make a value judgement as to whether an article is worth the time, effort and bother to read - and decide not.

Oops - almost forgot to mention - my hand is up - I did read it to the end and I did see the requests.
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Grant Shapps panders to The Mail

Post by thirdcrank »

Sorry for the wrong attributions which I have now corrected. And top marks to anybody who has written in
awavey
Posts: 297
Joined: 25 Jul 2016, 12:04am

Re: Grant Shapps panders to The Mail

Post by awavey »

and he's off again :x

the basic summary is he now wants to setup a review of all existing motoring laws such that they will be made to extend and apply equally to cyclists as well, be that for speeding, identification (ie registration) for enforcement, mandatory insurance, drink drive laws etc etc etc probably chuck in an MOT on bikes too while theyre at it. and seems to have a beef about filtering too.

I know people say we get the politicians we deserve, but who voted this <rude word> in ?
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 7993
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Grant Shapps panders to The Mail

Post by simonineaston »

Old chestnut - or real threat??
in today's Daily Mail
in today's Daily Mail
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Post Reply