Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

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crg
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by crg »

rareposter wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 4:52pm
crg wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 3:59pm Seems to me that in addition to frames of different sizes and in each size, need frames rated for different weights.
Quite a few manufacturers, within the last 5 years or so as both materials engineering and data measuring have developed, have started doing size-specific tubing (easier with carbon) - smaller frames don't usually need the same levels of stiffness as bigger frames for example so to get the same ride quality between XXS and XXL frames, you use different carbon lay-ups.
One has to use different layups in XXS based on body weight.
And so on in every size. It is not just size-specific tubing but size- and weight-specific tubing.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

slowster wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 10:09pm To be clear, by light tourer I mean a steel frame with (certainly in the medium and smaller sizes) a 1" steerer, 1" top tube and 1 1/8" down tube, clearance for ~35mm tyres with mudguards, and - as 531colin stated - designed for lightly laden touring.
If you're going to specify those dimensions then no, the market is probably very small in both supply and demand.

But if you'll allow more modern (= easier to source for the manufacturer, easier to replace for the rider) components, such as 1 1/8" or 1/4" steerer, then there are loads out there. Many already mentioned just on page 1 (and you even mentioned the Genesis Croix de Fer yourself).
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Nearholmer wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 11:20pm PS: do such things as hydraulic rim brakes exist?
https://winstanleysbikes.co.uk/magura-h ... -rim-brake
Biospace
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Biospace »

rareposter wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 6:33pm
I'd disagree with the
plus nobody could really improve on it
because modern bikes are vastly improved over even a top-end bike of 20-30 years ago. Far more variety for custom builds, everything on the market is lighter, stiffer, stronger, better optimised for its intended purpose.

I've got quite a retro top end road bike - genuinely top end, the full-on World Tour level from early 2000's - and back in its day it was a phenomenal bike. Still rides nicely but compared to even a mid-range road bike now, it feels twitchy and flexy and a bit fragile. My modern road bike (nothing special at all; mid-range carbon frame, mid-range groupset) is far stiffer, faster, comfier and actually about the same weight in spite of the "lower grade" components.

Biospace wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 5:19pm Would the fashion for as little exposed seatpin as possible return with it?
God I hope not, it looks truly terrible!
More seatpost is much better - you build the flex into that, shorten and stiffen the rear triangle so you have a neat stiff frame and a load of vertical compliance in the seatpost. Plus it's loads easier to fit racks, mudguards, lights, saddlebag etc if there's a long seatpost.

There are arguments all ways. I'm the sort who would prefer a 1920s Bentley (or even a 50s Rolls Bentley) to a 2020s one, not necessarily for the reasons you might imagine. A pre-war sailing boat built with two experienced boatbuilders, a tree and their brains is often a more accomplished sail than something similar but designed on a computer. There's a real world beyond the spec sheet.

The laws of physics don't change, any bicycle frame will have certain subtle characteristics as well as its various rigidities. There's a sweet spot to everything. From what I can tell, little is much better or worse if you take really good products from different eras, they're simply tailored to a different set of priorities.

What matters most is the appreciation and enjoyment of what you choose to use, and to celebrate our diversity in choice.
Nearholmer
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Nearholmer »

Brmblbzz (apologies for any misspelling)

Thanks for that link. I’m tempted to buy a set, just to find out whether they live-up to hopes.
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foxyrider
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by foxyrider »

20 years ago, when i was working for Orbit we did a range of 'touring' bikes from Expedition - Romany, Road Tour - Harrier and Audax - Photon, each in several spec levels. The tube selection and to a lesser extent frame angles, changed depending on size with the option of a full custom build if you had really deep pockets.

The Harrier was the biggest seller in what i would term, 'light tourer' spec, rear rack & guards, closer ratio gearing, narrower tyres - i used the prototype for a while, it was quite able on most surfaces, very nimble and responsive without the sogginess of machines like the Galaxy when loaded. It was steel, built in the UK with Columbus oversize tubes, ahead and a full set of braze ons. All that came at a price one that meant it wasn't really commercially viable on the numbers bought, @ 50 a year.

I have a Photon myself, it really is a tweaked steel race bike at heart, yes it takes guards and a rear rack but i wouldn't want to put more than @ 10kg on it. And compared to the Harrier it rides like a dog and its not anywhere close to the comfort of my CF road bike or even my old 531 hack.

Is there a market for a light steel tourer? I'm sure there is, no doubt put out through the likes of Evans / Decathlon it could even be commercially viable but it would be a compromise, a limited range of sizes and i doubt they'd play about with tubing to match rider weights either. And smaller, hands on brands just couldn't turn over the numbers so IMO yes there is a very small market but commercially it would be a non runner as it wouldn't have any great appeal over the AL and CF stuff already in that niche market.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
AndyK
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by AndyK »

Well, my definition of light touring involves a few days away, carrying minimal luggage, mostly on-road. (If you're going offroad it's not "light" any more.)

So the answer to the original question is: Genesis Equlibrium.

Genesis have been selling it for over a decade so I guess they've found enough of a market for it. Admittedly the design emphasis has changed a few times over the years, but basically it's designed for comfort and speed over long distances has fittings for mudguards and a rear rack and is capable of carrying a modest load without falling apart. The current model has a wider gear range and space for wider tyres compared to my 2012 model, so arguably it's even more of a light touring bike now than it used to be. Also the new model has a steel fork as standard rather than the carbon fork on mine. I consider that a retrograde step but some will like it. This review of the 2021 model even uses the words "light touring".
Jamesh
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Jamesh »

What does spa have to offer in this niche?

Surely Colin designed something suitable?

To my mind it involves caliper brakes and rear panniers / saddle bag.

Once your into front panniers and canti your into heavy touring.

Pizza cutters? well let's not go there!!
PH
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by PH »

Jamesh wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 11:48pm To my mind it involves caliper brakes and rear panniers / saddle bag.
Can i remind you of the spec in the OP?
To be clear, by light tourer I mean a steel frame with (certainly in the medium and smaller sizes) a 1" steerer, 1" top tube and 1 1/8" down tube, clearance for ~35mm tyres with mudguard
There's a whole range of sports tourers, or whatever else you'd like to call them, just none that seem to meet the OP's wish list.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Nearholmer wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 9:48pm Brmblbzz (apologies for any misspelling)

Thanks for that link. I’m tempted to buy a set, just to find out whether they live-up to hopes.
If you do get some, be sure to report back here on your experiences. I don't actually know anyone who's used them, I was simply aware of their existence.
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 9:33pm
slowster wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 10:09pm To be clear, by light tourer I mean a steel frame with (certainly in the medium and smaller sizes) a 1" steerer, 1" top tube and 1 1/8" down tube, clearance for ~35mm tyres with mudguards, and - as 531colin stated - designed for lightly laden touring.
If you're going to specify those dimensions then no, the market is probably very small in both supply and demand.

But if you'll allow more modern (= easier to source for the manufacturer, easier to replace for the rider) components, such as 1 1/8" or 1/4" steerer, then there are loads out there. Many already mentioned just on page 1 (and you even mentioned the Genesis Croix de Fer yourself).
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for or against any particular components. I'm saying that "light tourer" (or for that matter "cyclocrosser" or "mountain bike", etc) should be understood in terms of purpose and use, rather than defined in technologies and dimensions.
pwa
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by pwa »

scottg wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 6:03pm
Nearholmer wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 4:50pm[snip]

Why? I can’t for the life of me see how you could make the product appealing to enough people. Where is the ‘lifestyle appeal’ in it? It’s not super fast, it doesn’t allow you to perform death-defying downhill dashes through forests, [sni]
You’d sell some to older riders, but not many, because they already have something they either restored themselves or had made bespoke, and you might sell a few to retro-cool youngsters, but again not many, but I reckon that come October, you’d be heavily discounting the leftovers.

Which is a pity, because it would be very comfy!
I found your bike company.
https://crustbikes.com/collections/fram ... bolt-canti
This is a light weight road and light gravel bike, so don't go all Evel Knievel thinking you're
Missy Giove bombing this thing down some single track. It's not designed for that.
I can't see seat stay pannier rack fittings on that, so it is a "no" from me.
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Cugel
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Cugel »

There seems to be rather a lot of romanticism, nostalgia and other human emotions involved when judging bicycle types and materials. Perhaps these feelings exert themselves to such a degree that those feeling them have their more physical feelings altered as part of the experience?

Personally I've ridden many steel-frame bikes over more than six decades, from the inexpensive off-the-shelf through to the lovingly hand-made just for me and my purposes. The pinnacles were perhaps a handbuilt 531SL racing frame, which was certainly very good for that purpose; and a 531 Ribble touring frame that did thousands of happy miles across the northern Pennines and back. I've also ridden gas-pipers but also frames made of exotic Columbus tubing.

However, none of the steel framed bikes I've owned over nearly five decades came anywhere near the comfort of a modern CF frame of the properly designed & built kind I now use. Nowhere near.

Of course, I haven't ridden all steel framed bikes and there may be a magical build that can manage the comfort of a modern CF frame. For some reason, I'm sceptical. And so are my nether and hands. :-)

Not to say, either, that steel-framed bikes aren't fit for purpose. I did a lot of miles on those I owned and enjoyed (if that's the right term) every one of them, adapting myself to the bike and it's inherent discomforts. Still, why get romantic about a machine?

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Pendodave
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Pendodave »

Well, I've got one of these mythical beasts - I bought it when we were locked up and I wanted to get out and about for exercise and relief.
It's a Tifosi CK5 : https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes ... co-review/
You've probably never heard of it, because they didn't sell it for long, which explains everything about the original question. Even mine (new from a real shop) was purchased at cost because they couldn't shift it.

After extensive use for general leisure and plenty of b&b touring, I can see why there's no market. If I knew then what I knew now I'd have got a 2nd hand road bike and a 2nd hand, more robust, tourer. I've had the best life with it, up in Scotland and points north/west. But at the same time, although I'm happy with it, I'm not "really, really" happy.

It's curious how, marketing and some deep seated hankering after something better means that this product niche just can't sell in a "must be just right" world, even to me.
hoogerbooger
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by hoogerbooger »

I have enjoyed this post; comments on build/compliance & the varying views.

I can't comment on if there is a market for a light tourer today as I live in the early 1990's and my 22.5 Inch 1989 Raleigh Randonneur ( with limited seat pin showing) seems fast and compliant to me and my 69-65kg ( taking up to 37mm tyres on the back). I am sure that there is always some sentimentality involved in views on what is good and to a degree we get used to what we have. I am a one bike for life owner(*) and very happily a Flat-Top-Tuber ( with sticky-out wide cantis), For my entire life I have been lazily (and skind-flintly) unfashionable . I used to quite like slopey top tubes and seat pin...but now they are just everywhere and I have become Retro and almost fashionable by default... but very happily on my nice Randonneur. So I hope not too many flat toped steel light tourers are made and sold, as currently I stand out in a crowd ( as the nerd on the old bike)

Thinking about the posts: if you have an overbuilt steel bike, then instead of looking for a more compliant frame, one option would be to stop more often at Cafe's and eat more cake/pies. ( this, perhaps explains a lot of what I have been seeing when I'm out)



* (that's one light tourer; one expedition 26" tourer; one full suspension cross-country; one Brompton; one BSA shopper.....to be continued)
old fangled
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