Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

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rareposter
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by rareposter »

Cugel wrote: 16 Aug 2022, 9:17am There seems to be rather a lot of romanticism, nostalgia and other human emotions involved when judging bicycle types and materials. Perhaps these feelings exert themselves to such a degree that those feeling them have their more physical feelings altered as part of the experience?
Very much so - there still seems to be this romantic view that nothing will ever surpass Reynolds 531 - sorry but 531 is long since obsolete (it's is still made in very small amounts to special order by Reynolds to cater for repairs to old machines but that is it); no builder would ever offer to knock up something new in 531 now and most would probably refuse to build a frame with this:
To be clear, by light tourer I mean a steel frame with (certainly in the medium and smaller sizes) a 1" steerer, 1" top tube and 1 1/8" down tube, clearance for ~35mm tyres with mudguard
rather arbitrary and frankly nonsensical restriction. I'm not even sure why that has been chosen - is there some amazing advantage to those dimensions that I've missed?

[Note - that's not to say that 531 frames are "bad" - they're not and I know there are of course many still being ridden or kept for nostalgia purposes. It's just that things have moved on a bit in much the same way that you can't walk into a car dealer and buy a Morris Minor]

As mentioned upthread, there are a number of bikes that tick the boxes of "light tourer" in steel, aluminium and titanium certainly - Genesis, Cotic, Sonder, Enigma and I'm sure if you looked long enough you'd probably find something in carbon since it's perfectly possible to put bottle, rack and mudguard mounting points into carbon.
From a mainstream manufacturer, the entry level aluminium Specialized Diverge is another example...
reohn2
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 7:27am I have always thought of my Salsa Vaya as a light tourer. Steel frame and less of a clunker than the Trucker. It has discs but the additional weight is minimal. I shod mine with Panaracer Paselas for maximum comfort.

IMAG0300.jpg

Salsa themselves claim it is a gravel/ light tourer so they are ahead of this game

https://www.salsacycles.com/bikes/road/Vaya

Having done several tours on it the Vaya wasnt really suitable for cycle camping, it was too whippy to carry a full load of 16kg plus me. OK for credit card touring with about 9kg though.

Al
I wouldn't say the Vaya is a light tourer more a tourer but not a heavy(expedition)tourer,I'd suggest the bike in the photo would benefit enormously from a Tubus rack in place of the alu one pictured,which isnt stable with over 12kg on it where it,as the tail, wags the dog IYSWIM,this has been covered in other threads where others have agreed with me.

Both my Vayas were truly awesome bikes when shod with lightweight high quality 40mm tyres (inflated accordingly and not overinflated which seems to be prevalent with some cyclists),such as the discontinued Vittoria Voyager Hyper with 120 tpi carcases.The bikes performed extremely well on long days in the saddle both on and off road,quick for a 12kg tourer and supremely comfortable.The second generation blue one was ever so slightly stiffer due to a slightly larger section top tube,though no less comfortable than the 1st gen bronze coloured one.
Both truly awesome(I don't use that term lightly)bikes,that I've ridden extensively on single and double track and descended at over 45mph on tarmac,it rode on all terrains with comfort and very predictable handling charachteristics,a bike I always felt I was sat in not on and a very friendly place to be.

EDITED for spelling and clarity.
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mjr
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by mjr »

Nearholmer wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 4:50pm Will they sell enough to make a decent profit and justify all the diversion of effort from other products (opportunity cost)?

My gut feel is that the answer is: no.

Why? I can’t for the life of me see how you could make the product appealing to enough people. Where is the ‘lifestyle appeal’ in it? It’s not super fast, it doesn’t allow you to perform death-defying downhill dashes through forests, it’s no clear that it’s really up for truly “off the beaten tracks” riding, it has no ‘tech appeal’ (because it deliberately eschews tech). And, it’s not going to be a cheap bike by any means, so you can forget most ‘occasional leisure’ buyers.

You’d sell some to older riders, but not many, because they already have something they either restored themselves or had made bespoke, and you might sell a few to retro-cool youngsters, but again not many, but I reckon that come October, you’d be heavily discounting the leftovers.

Which is a pity, because it would be very comfy!
If bikes have to be superfast, forest-capable, or cheap, why do there seem to be so many Bobbin Birdies and Pendleton Somerbys about? Don't underestimate the appeal of a bike that just makes you smile as you swoosh by.
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Nearholmer
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Nearholmer »

Fair point, but I still can’t see how the marketing bods are going to market this notional bike. What is its USP, as they say? How are they going to make people want to buy it? That’s the bit I don’t get.

That Salsa Vaya looks interesting, and it also looks very similar indeed to my CdF. Any clues as to why/how it is (presumably) less rigid?
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531colin
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by 531colin »

All this stuff gets harder to call to mind with the passage of time.

Spa Aubisque the 2 smallest sizes have inch top tube and inch and eighth down tube.
Detour and steel Elan its only the smallest with those tube sizes.

Everybody has inch and eighth seat tube, although I might do that differently if I was starting out now,

Its worth taking notice of people who can do the maths
Brucey reckoned that a one inch steerer contributed as much to "comfort" as the fork blades.
CJ reckoned that a light pair of bars would make as much (or as little!) difference to comfort as a light pair of forks.

.....but if you are going to swap stems on test bikes in the shop for customers to take a test ride, then you are going to use ahead stems with removeable faceplates, not quill stems and re-tape the bars.
slowster
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by slowster »

Nearholmer wrote: 16 Aug 2022, 12:07pm That Salsa Vaya looks interesting, and it also looks very similar indeed to my CdF. Any clues as to why/how it is (presumably) less rigid?
I think you will be able to determine the answer to that question once you have read the last post by jameso in the Singletrackworld thread to which I provided a link in my OP - https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topi ... hts/page/2.
Last edited by slowster on 16 Aug 2022, 2:06pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by al_yrpal »

Nearholmer wrote: 16 Aug 2022, 12:07pm
That Salsa Vaya looks interesting, and it also looks very similar indeed to my CdF. Any clues as to why/how it is (presumably) less rigid?
I think its probably the frame shape and the tube diameters and thicknesses that made it less solid than my other tourers. However being less solid did make it more comfortable.
It is a nice bike, I expect I will sell it soon as I regress to my clunker an electric steed. After dodgy arteries my multi day tours are probably over.

Al
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Nearholmer »

I’m learning much here, thanks chaps.

The other Genesis bike I had briefly was a Tour de Fer, their heavy tourer, and that was amazingly springy. The ‘large’ size is a very stretched-out, long, low geometry, with thin tubes and, by modern, disc-braked standards, a distinctly curved fork. It was super-smooth, but I swapped it for the TdF because I found it too much of a barge off-road.
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by PH »

Nearholmer wrote: 16 Aug 2022, 12:07pm That Salsa Vaya looks interesting, and it also looks very similar indeed to my CdF. Any clues as to why/how it is (presumably) less rigid?
I wouldn't make that presumption. That's not to say it's wrong, but rather I've seen nothing that convinces me it's right. They're both built with a similar remit, they both have their fans, and both manufacturers offer something else, probably stiffer, for full touring.
I like reading others impressions of bikes, but that's all they are, an impression heavily tinted by their experiences, comparisons and preferences. I wouldn't read too much into the opinions of two different riders reviewing two different bikes, it might not be an equal comparison.
I've been through a few bikes, probably far more than necessary, a couple have been outstandingly right, a couple real disappointments, but most have been fine, just not fine enough to make me want to keep them long term. Then your riding changes, I've just parted with the Hewitt Cheviot I'd had for 18 years, it rode as nice as the day I bought it, yet wasn't getting ridden... As hobbies go, it isn't really an expensive one, if I thought a bike with slowster's spec was for me, I'd get one, if I couldn't find it OTP I'd have it made.
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by PH »

Nearholmer wrote: 16 Aug 2022, 2:57pm I’m learning much here, thanks chaps.

The other Genesis bike I had briefly was a Tour de Fer, their heavy tourer, and that was amazingly springy. The ‘large’ size is a very stretched-out, long, low geometry, with thin tubes and, by modern, disc-braked standards, a distinctly curved fork.
That surprises me, everything about it suggests a stiffer frame, but your experience is your experience...
Nearholmer
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Nearholmer »

Yes, the difference surprised me too, TBH I was a tad crestfallen when the CdF turned out to have far less spring.

Here is the TdF, see how long and low:
6398CA86-1B55-4D7B-9817-96CA2A96BE76.jpeg
Last edited by Nearholmer on 16 Aug 2022, 4:14pm, edited 1 time in total.
slowster
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by slowster »

Nearholmer wrote: 16 Aug 2022, 3:12pm Yes, the difference surprised me too, TBH I was a tad crestfallen when the CdF turned out to have far less spring.
There are some more comments from the designer of the earlier versions of the Croix De Fer on both pages of the thread below:

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topi ... -worth-it/

Although he states the tube thickness, that is of less importance than the tube diameter. Does your Croix De Fer have a 34.9mm down tube (and I presume a 31.8mm top tube)? I think the Vaya and most other bikes in that category (in your size) will have a 31.8mm downtube (and 28.6mm top tube). He states that the CDF was developed before the TDF, and it was intended to be suitable for use with loaded panniers as well. So it does not seem surprising that the TDF might be less stiff, if it was also designed for loaded touring but with a focus of being ridden on roads, rather than gravel etc.
Last edited by slowster on 16 Aug 2022, 4:07pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nearholmer
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Nearholmer »

I’m not where I can access it at the moment, and my eyeballing it with a ruler yesterday wasn’t accurate enough to be sure, so I’ll have a proper check tomorrow.
slowster
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by slowster »

I think this thread has answered my question, and it seems there is not a commercially viable market for an off the peg light steel tourer with the characteristics I've described, because,

- They will tend to suit lighter riders (no more than 80kg at most, and probably less).

- Even among lighter riders, I expect those who are (very) fit/have a high power output/slower cadence will probably prefer a stiffer frame.

Such a pool of potential customers is further reduced because,

- Very many people who might like and prefer such a bike, will probably not get the opportunity to ride one to find that out.

- The rest probaby already have such a bike - like geomannie, fossala, Biopace and hoogerbooger - and so are unlikely to be in the market for another.

Based on foxyrider's experience in the trade it seems a batch of such frames probably would not sell fast enough to be commercially attractive. I think Maxway in Taiwan have a minimum order quantity of 100 for steel frames.

I did think the potential margin might be commercially attractive. The Light Blue sell their St John's audax type frame for £850, which is the sort of price point I was imagining for my 'light steel tourer'. My hypothetical tourer would not need chrome, and I think Reynolds 725 would probably not be needed: Reynolds 631 or 525/520 would probably be adequate. However, even with a higher margin I am guessing that would not adequately offset the likely slow sales.

https://www.thelightblue.co.uk/Sport/FM ... -Frameset-
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by PH »

I think your conclusion is right, it simply isn't what people want. I can think of a few manufactures who've thought it was, had models that ticked many, if not all your boxes, SOMA Stanyan, Singular Ospray, a couple from VO, none of them were around for long.
Even Mercian seem to have been dragged into the present, most frames now come with a threadless headset and their latest model has disc brakes, straight forks and thru axels.
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