Law on modifying bikes

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
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Pebble
Posts: 1934
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Law on modifying bikes

Post by Pebble »

40mph on a shared path without pedalling - My guess it is a large mountain bike modified into an electric motorbike. Would this be legal or allowed on anything other than private land ?

I'm referring to an incident we had as walkers on a shared path in tyneside where youths (wearing full face helmets) were riding these things at phenomenal speed.
stodd
Posts: 709
Joined: 6 Jun 2018, 10:24am

Re: Law on modifying bikes

Post by stodd »

Pebble wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 8:31am 40mph on a shared path without pedalling - My guess it is a large mountain bike modified into an electric motorbike. Would this be legal or allowed on anything other than private land ?

I'm referring to an incident we had as walkers on a shared path in tyneside where youths (wearing full face helmets) were riding these things at phenomenal speed.
Most certainly not legal on paths or other off-road areas accessible to the public. Not legal on the road unless certified/registered/plated/insured.
deeferdonk
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Joined: 11 May 2019, 2:50pm

Re: Law on modifying bikes

Post by deeferdonk »

Legally that would be a motorbike, and have all the associated requirements.
jois
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Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Law on modifying bikes

Post by jois »

Pebble wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 8:31am 40mph on a shared path without pedalling - My guess it is a large mountain bike modified into an electric motorbike. Would this be legal or allowed on anything other than private land ?

I'm referring to an incident we had as walkers on a shared path in tyneside where youths (wearing full face helmets) were riding these things at phenomenal speed.
All most definetly illegal. Just how illegal is dependent on a lot of things we don't know.

The law around vehicles in general and ebikes in particular is a bit hazy.

If it doesn't fit the dispensation for ebikes , it needs a licence and insurance to be used in a public place. Which of course they may have. Unlikely but possible.

There is a crew of electric motorcycle scramblers who frequent the shared use paths near me. Who do have both but take their number plates off to avoid being reported for the far lesser offence of using a motor vehicle on a foot path.

If not having a number plate is it's self an offence is somewhat debatable as it needs where ever they are motorbiking on to be defined as a road.

Most of the construction and use regs for which ebikes get a dispensation are only statutory requirements on a road . There are quite a few sometimes contradictory case law definitions on what is and isn't a road. But there not easy to apply in general terms as each case would turn on its merits.

They clearly are not breaking any speed limit by doing 40mph unless it is indeed a road and there is a system of street lights or a TRO setting a speed limit. Though as a public place a charge of careless riding could be possible.

Even in the very unlikely even they were apprehended. If they have the presence of mind to turn the road legal restrictions on before the police get hold of the bike. There would be considerable difficulty prosicuting them. I'm aware there is government guidance on not being able to turn it off and on. But I'm not convinced this meets the letter of the law such that a conviction would be automatic . If the government want to change what's in a law, they really need to change the text of the law, not just issue guidance.

Could they put together a case and get a prosicution? Possibly, would they bother ? Not so sure. Just seize the bike on suspicions of no insurance and unlawfully refuse to return it seems more likely
ChrisF
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Joined: 22 Mar 2014, 7:34pm

Re: Law on modifying bikes

Post by ChrisF »

I was recently cycling in London and was surprised to see electric delivery bikes (and trikes) with huge motors and no requirement for pedalling (not even a chain). No number plates. How can these be allowed? Does any authority ever question them?
Chris F, Cornwall
Bonzo Banana
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Joined: 5 Feb 2017, 11:58am

Re: Law on modifying bikes

Post by Bonzo Banana »

ChrisF wrote: 24 Sep 2022, 5:19pm I was recently cycling in London and was surprised to see electric delivery bikes (and trikes) with huge motors and no requirement for pedalling (not even a chain). No number plates. How can these be allowed? Does any authority ever question them?
The size of the motor isn't the issue, direct drive hub motors are oversized and heavy but can still operate on 250W nominal, in fact in the past for early ebikes there was a lot of direct drive hub motors and they were restricted to 200W nominal. They have to be large due to the lack of internal gearing. The issue is how much current the controller gives them. Direct drive motors are very robust. At 250W nominal they are probably only delivering around 30Nm torque, below the perhaps average of 40Nm for geared hub motors and well below the 80Nm or more of many mid-drive motors meant for off-road use. Direct drive motors are the most efficient in electrical terms (they are just pure brushless motors) but less efficient in application terms because they are less efficient at slower speeds but not dramatically worse and you can use regen to compensate for that. Grin technologies do a lot of informative videos on youtube about the efficiencies of different ebike motor types and they actually prefer direct drive hub motors overall I would say. People make the assumption because the motor is larger it somehow needs more power but if you actually disable the clutch mechanism of smaller geared hub motors there is more resistance to turning than direct drive because they are geared so high. The issue with direct drive hub motors is with no moving parts and a larger surface area they can take much more current (they won't strip internal nylon gears because they don't have any) and they cool better because of the larger surface area but that doesn't mean they have to take very high current to work.

A video here has a lot of useful information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxJe_gygRGU
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Law on modifying bikes

Post by Jdsk »

ChrisF wrote: 24 Sep 2022, 5:19pm I was recently cycling in London and was surprised to see electric delivery bikes (and trikes) with huge motors and no requirement for pedalling (not even a chain). No number plates. How can these be allowed? Does any authority ever question them?
I'm trying to work out what these could be. Where was the motor?

Anything like the Citkar Loadster? I think that there's a trial of those in London.
https://citkar.com/en/loadster-shop/

Thanks

Jonathan
jois
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Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Law on modifying bikes

Post by jois »

Jdsk wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 5:06pm
ChrisF wrote: 24 Sep 2022, 5:19pm I was recently cycling in London and was surprised to see electric delivery bikes (and trikes) with huge motors and no requirement for pedalling (not even a chain). No number plates. How can these be allowed? Does any authority ever question them?
I'm trying to work out what these could be. Where was the motor?

Anything like the Citkar Loadster? I think that there's a trial of those in London.
https://citkar.com/en/loadster-shop/

Thanks

Jonathan
I'd hazard a guess at under that cowl near the front wheel, the back appears to be battery
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Law on modifying bikes

Post by Jdsk »

jois wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 5:08pm
Jdsk wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 5:06pm
ChrisF wrote: 24 Sep 2022, 5:19pm I was recently cycling in London and was surprised to see electric delivery bikes (and trikes) with huge motors and no requirement for pedalling (not even a chain). No number plates. How can these be allowed? Does any authority ever question them?
I'm trying to work out what these could be. Where was the motor?

Anything like the Citkar Loadster? I think that there's a trial of those in London.
https://citkar.com/en/loadster-shop/
I'd hazard a guess at under that cowl near the front wheel, the back appears to be battery
I wasn't asking about the drivetrain of a Citkar Loadster. And it is very interesting and unusual.

I was asking Chris F if that looked like what he saw and was describing.

Jonathan
jois
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Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Law on modifying bikes

Post by jois »

Jdsk wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 5:20pm
jois wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 5:08pm
Jdsk wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 5:06pm
I'm trying to work out what these could be. Where was the motor?

Anything like the Citkar Loadster? I think that there's a trial of those in London.
https://citkar.com/en/loadster-shop/
I'd hazard a guess at under that cowl near the front wheel, the back appears to be battery
I wasn't asking about the drivetrain of a Citkar Loadster. And it is very interesting and unusual.

I was asking Chris F if that looked like what he saw and was describing.

Jonathan
AHH ,
ChrisF
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Joined: 22 Mar 2014, 7:34pm

Re: Law on modifying bikes

Post by ChrisF »

Jdsk wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 5:06pm
ChrisF wrote: 24 Sep 2022, 5:19pm I was recently cycling in London and was surprised to see electric delivery bikes (and trikes) with huge motors and no requirement for pedalling (not even a chain). No number plates. How can these be allowed? Does any authority ever question them?
I'm trying to work out what these could be. Where was the motor?

Anything like the Citkar Loadster? I think that there's a trial of those in London.
https://citkar.com/en/loadster-shop/

Thanks

Jonathan
The motor was in the rear wheel; nothing like the Citkar (which appears to have 4 wheels?). But surely the Citkar would need licence / number plate etc if used in the UK, even if only 250W, unless it needs pedals?
BTW those Citkars seem incredibly expensive!
Chris F, Cornwall
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Law on modifying bikes

Post by jois »

ChrisF wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 8:12pm
Jdsk wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 5:06pm
ChrisF wrote: 24 Sep 2022, 5:19pm I was recently cycling in London and was surprised to see electric delivery bikes (and trikes) with huge motors and no requirement for pedalling (not even a chain). No number plates. How can these be allowed? Does any authority ever question them?
I'm trying to work out what these could be. Where was the motor?

Anything like the Citkar Loadster? I think that there's a trial of those in London.
https://citkar.com/en/loadster-shop/

Thanks

Jonathan
The motor was in the rear wheel; nothing like the Citkar (which appears to have 4 wheels?). But surely the Citkar would need licence / number plate etc if used in the UK, even if only 250W, unless it needs pedals?
BTW those Citkars seem incredibly expensive!
I have it in mind they are waving such in some areas to encourage commercial use, could have dreamt that though.
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Law on modifying bikes

Post by Jdsk »

ChrisF wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 8:12pm
Jdsk wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 5:06pm
ChrisF wrote: 24 Sep 2022, 5:19pm I was recently cycling in London and was surprised to see electric delivery bikes (and trikes) with huge motors and no requirement for pedalling (not even a chain). No number plates. How can these be allowed? Does any authority ever question them?
I'm trying to work out what these could be. Where was the motor?

Anything like the Citkar Loadster? I think that there's a trial of those in London.
https://citkar.com/en/loadster-shop/
The motor was in the rear wheel; nothing like the Citkar (which appears to have 4 wheels?). But surely the Citkar would need licence / number plate etc if used in the UK, even if only 250W, unless it needs pedals?
BTW those Citkars seem incredibly expensive!
Thanks.

I'll look out for whatever they are the next time that I'm in London.

The Citkar Loadster has pedals and qualifies as a pedelec... no licence, no numberplates etc.

Jonathan
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