English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Separate forum to permit easy exclusion when searching for serious information !
Dingdong
Posts: 966
Joined: 22 Apr 2022, 4:59pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Dingdong »

Brickbats.... Wherev on earth did that come from!?
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Dingdong wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 2:49pm Brickbats.... Wherev on earth did that come from!?
A brickbat is a broken brick with one good end. The term and bat more generally are used in the trade:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brickwork#Cut

That makes a convenient weapon. OED's first recorded use is from 1563/1570.

And that became a figurative weapon. Milton 1642.

Jonathan

PS: ... bouquets or brickbats 1878.
Dingdong
Posts: 966
Joined: 22 Apr 2022, 4:59pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Dingdong »

Ah, that makes sense. What about Mollycoddle?
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Mollycoddle seems to be undergoing a slight revival after its 20th century decline, possible as its roots in molly (think gangster's moll) are forgotten.
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Edited: Crossed post.

Two old words recently stuck together.

Molly has many current meanings beyond the given name, and the most common are connected to soft. Mollify, emollient, mollusc (but not moule/ mussel).

Coddle might be derived from hot water, and remains in current use for soft-boiling (is this regional?) although it has several other culinary uses. Possibly related to scald.

So two words with connotations of softness put together give mollycoddle. First recorded in 1823, but as a noun describing a person. It's also been used as an adjective and an intransitive verb, but is now overwhelmingly used as a transitive verb.

But there's more to it than that. Both words have associations of effeminacy and molly has meant homosexual in several British eras. See, for example, molly house:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_house

I'd guess that whoever first-used mollycoddle was aware of this.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 8:45am Mollycoddle seems to be undergoing a slight revival after its 20th century decline, possible as its roots in molly (think gangster's moll) are forgotten.
Yes, same roots, as above. Before gangster's moll it already had the meaning of *pprostitute.

Of course homosexual activity and prostitution are both underrepresented in nice literature so usage is harder to analyse. This also meant that words were used in error, and that they could be smuggled through as in-jokes.

Jonathan

* Spelt like that to defeat the autocensor. Ironic or what!
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Jdsk wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 8:57am
Bmblbzzz wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 8:45am Mollycoddle seems to be undergoing a slight revival after its 20th century decline, possible as its roots in molly (think gangster's moll) are forgotten.
Yes, same roots, as above. Before gangster's moll it already had the meaning of *pprostitute.

Of course homosexual activity and prostitution are both underrepresented in nice literature so usage is harder to analyse. This also meant that words were used in error, and that they could be smuggled through as in-jokes.

Jonathan

* Spelt like that to defeat the autocensor. Ironic or what!
Kingsley Amis is said to have been fond of using the word "queer" in contexts where most readers and publishers (were books also subject to censorship? If so, then censors too) would have taken it to mean "odd" but some would have been aware of a double meaning. Even the BBC was not immune to this, eg "Round the the Horn".
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

Seen in Lidl's today.

"Automatic Welding Goggles"

What is automatic welding? :lol:
Mick F. Cornwall
Mike Sales
Posts: 7882
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mike Sales »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 10:16am Kingsley Amis is said to have been fond of using the word "queer" in contexts where most readers and publishers (were books also subject to censorship? If so, then censors too) would have taken it to mean "odd" but some would have been aware of a double meaning. Even the BBC was not immune to this, eg "Round the the Horn".
Not immune to double entendres? Round The Horne revelled risque jokes, especially Sandy and his friend Jules who enoyed speaking Polari.
Polari had begun to fall into disuse amongst the gay subculture by the late 1960s. The popularity of Julian and Sandy, played by Hugh Paddick and Kenneth Williams (introduced in the radio programme Round the Horne, in the 1960s) ensured that some of this secret language became public knowledge.[15] The need for a secret subculture code declined with the partial decriminalization of adult homosexual acts in England and Wales under the Sexual Offences Act 1967.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polari
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Yes, but how much of the management structure above the writers and actors knew what was going on? That's what I'm getting at.
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Mick F wrote: 24 Sep 2022, 8:11pm Seen in Lidl's today.

"Automatic Welding Goggles"

What is automatic welding? :lol:
I don't know, but I do know that your local Lidl is a lot more exciting than mine!
Mike Sales
Posts: 7882
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mike Sales »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 24 Sep 2022, 8:36pm Yes, but how much of the management structure above the writers and actors knew what was going on? That's what I'm getting at.
You may be right, but I find it difficult to believe the most obtuse bureaucrat could miss the joke.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
User avatar
Audax67
Posts: 6001
Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 9:02am
Location: Alsace, France
Contact:

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Audax67 »

People saying "oh, that's regional" to excuse simple ignorance. OK, sometimes an aberration can be regional, but in the majority of cases the region was on the far side of the Atlantic and the deviant usage got here via the media.
Have we got time for another cuppa?
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 9:55am Heard on R4 Today prog by the main presenter chappy, "One or two times."

What happened to "once or twice"?
Far easier to say.
Was it used as an adverbial phrase or as a noun phrase?

Thanks

Jonathan
Dingdong
Posts: 966
Joined: 22 Apr 2022, 4:59pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Dingdong »

Mick F wrote: 24 Sep 2022, 8:11pm Seen in Lidl's today.

"Automatic Welding Goggles"

What is automatic welding? :lol:
Same as 'Automatic Self Service', ie nothing automatic about it!
Post Reply