Family ties

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Cugel
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Family ties

Post by Cugel »

In our society, "the family unit" is often employed as the most important social structure that must be catered to and supported by various politics, institutions and other armatures of our culture. It's a long tradition, connected at a base level with notion of individualism in that the family is seen as a fundamental boundary between various us & thems - a genetic individual. One historian traces our current promotion of "the family" back to early history of larger human groups (when the city-state began to arise) in which ancestor worship was a prevalent religious mode, which tended to increase the importance of "the family".

Many modern thinkers, of various thinking abilities, have proposed notions that the family is rather less of a beneficial construct than most of we moderns would tend to think. Here's an interesting article from The New Stateman magazine examining one such tradition of anti-family thinking:

https://www.newstatesman.com/internatio ... ish-family

A quote giving a flavour of the article:

"The family, Lewis and other abolitionists and feminists argue, privatises care. The legal and economic structure of the nuclear household warps love and intimacy into abuse, ownership, scarcity. Children are private property, legally owned and fully economically dependent on their parents. The hard work of care – looking after children, cooking and cleaning – is hidden away and devalued, performed for free by women or for scandalously low pay by domestic workers. Even the happiest families, in the words of the writer Ursula Le Guin, are built upon a “whole substructure of sacrifices, repressions, suppressions, choices made or forgone, chances taken or lost, balancings of greater or lesser evils”. If we abolish the family, we abolish the most fundamental unit of privatisation and scarcity in our society. More care, more love, for all".

For many of us, this will sound rather shocking. Children as private property!? "Whole substructures of sacrifice, repressions, suppressions ......"!?

My own working life, not to mention my early upbringing in a working class suburb of Tyneside, did reveal that the family is often a major source of damage to it's members. There is indeed a trend for children to be "owned and controlled as property" and for women to be given various forms of low-standard status, sometimes bordering on slavery.

Of course, not all families are that bad. But the article mentioned above suggests that families of the modern kind, even the nice ones, are in practice denying their members all sorts of potential betterments and advantages.

But wot U fink? :-)

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Jdsk
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Re: Family ties

Post by Jdsk »

1 The nuclear family isn't as benign as it's often described (as you say). Ask anyone who picks up the pieces when it's not working so well: mental health workers, GPs, teachers, social workers, police officers...

2 It isn't as traditional as it's often described. Over most of human history as far as we can tell people lived in larger groups and children were brought up in them (as you say).

3 Our particular version of families and housing and taxation policies is one of the major causes of the shortage of accommodation.

Jonathan
Ben@Forest
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Re: Family ties

Post by Ben@Forest »

I think that this is one of those arguments best responded to by Churchill's maxim about government; 'Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time...'

At the end of WW2 my mother and her siblings were in orphanages (one for the boys, one for the girls) - she suffered no abuse (though with the road you're going down you'd find abuse both at home and in the orphanages I'm sure) - but you'd have had a hard time convincing her that an orphanage or any other type of non-parental care was better than being with her family.
Vorpal
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Re: Family ties

Post by Vorpal »

I have some friends who live in non-traditional 'families' and it seems to work very much better than the 2 parents + 2.5 children model. In the traditional family, any time one adult is sick, disabled, or suffering from one problem or another, the entire burden of care either falls upon the other adult, or requires children to perform some level of care. That may not be all bad, but it may mean a child who is unprepared to mantle an adult level of responsibility, must do so. In addition, if the parents split, the mother is generally left with the burden of most care, and least money, while the father is sometimes denied his rights to parent.

Although different versions of this work differently in different countries (Scandinavian countries for example usually assign parental duties 50/50 between unmarried or split parents).

Of course, when you expand the family, you also introduce increased potential for conflict, but it is also generally more cost effective, and allows the adults to specialise somewhat; i.e. agree who does what according to skills, likes, etc.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Tangled Metal
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Re: Family ties

Post by Tangled Metal »

My view of the effect of parents and parenting is that we all find new ways to screw up our kids. Not a nice way of thinking but each genera sees the harm their parents caused and do things differently, fixing the mistakes, only to for the kids to see new harms needing remedies for their kids. Unintended consequences will always be there despite best intentions.

However, best intentions might not always be there. That's when family unit needs intervention. But that's not free from harm neither. Society and family are never far from human nature which IMHO can be very selfish. Eventually that might evolve out or we die out as a species. Who knows.

My ramble is over, jobs to do and all that.
Vorpal
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Re: Family ties

Post by Vorpal »

Ben@Forest wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 12:21pm I think that this is one of those arguments best responded to by Churchill's maxim about government; 'Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time...'

At the end of WW2 my mother and her siblings were in orphanages (one for the boys, one for the girls) - she suffered no abuse (though with the road you're going down you'd find abuse both at home and in the orphanages I'm sure) - but you'd have had a hard time convincing her that an orphanage or any other type of non-parental care was better than being with her family.
I don't think that suggests that children should be taken away from their parents, though? Just that other arrangements may work better. 3 - 5 adults with some number of children might make a more effective child raising unit than 2 adults + their children.

Or universal child care from an early age, that groups all of the children in an immediate area for some hours per day. Playschool type arrangements for anyone who wants or needs it.

Or multifamily housing units that are created as small, self-contained villages, with shared responsibility for the entire housing unit & all the people living there.

Right now these sort of things only work in very limited circumstances, mostly because they are not recognised as valid 'family units', without the advantages of the benefits granted to married people.

I have some friends in the UK who are single mums who live together. They get better housing & can share expenses. Their families (the two women & their 5 kids) do everything together, but they cannot be recognised as a family because they are not married.

Children have rights that are not adequately recognised in many countries, including the UK.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Ben@Forest
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Re: Family ties

Post by Ben@Forest »

Vorpal wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 12:57pm I don't think that suggests that children should be taken away from their parents, though? Just that other arrangements may work better. 3 - 5 adults with some number of children might make a more effective child raising unit than 2 adults + their children.
Might or may. For every situation where someone says it works for them there'll be one which doesn't if it was in some way 'enforced'. Communal living can be as full of quarrels, petty behaviour, spite and aggression as any other form of living. Every so often there's a 'celeb' interview where they'll reflect on their communal upbringing and say how much it was cold, nasty and they were 'made' to burrow under the floorboards to fix a problem because they were 6 years old and small enough (I genuinely have read that).

I have, in the course of my work, been to three communes, because they have woodlands. My experience is that they are cold, dirty (or at least dirty kitchens), ill-maintained houses, with half-finished agricultural or horticultural projects in the grounds - and it was obvious that at at least one of them there were simmering hostilities and tensions between some of the residents (and children were present)....
irc
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Re: Family ties

Post by irc »

I don't recognise that description of the family. In my case anyway in a 1960s and 70s childhood both parents worked and we had regular contact with cousins and grandparents all within a 20 min travel radius. It certainly wasn't just two parents bringing us up.

The exception was when we lived in Canada for two years. It was family ties that made my parents return to the UK.

But I guess every family is different so one data point etc.
Vorpal
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Re: Family ties

Post by Vorpal »

Ben@Forest wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 2:18pm
Vorpal wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 12:57pm I don't think that suggests that children should be taken away from their parents, though? Just that other arrangements may work better. 3 - 5 adults with some number of children might make a more effective child raising unit than 2 adults + their children.
Might or may. For every situation where someone says it works for them there'll be one which doesn't if it was in some way 'enforced'. Communal living can be as full of quarrels, petty behaviour, spite and aggression as any other form of living. Every so often there's a 'celeb' interview where they'll reflect on their communal upbringing and say how much it was cold, nasty and they were 'made' to burrow under the floorboards to fix a problem because they were 6 years old and small enough (I genuinely have read that).

I have, in the course of my work, been to three communes, because they have woodlands. My experience is that they are cold, dirty (or at least dirty kitchens), ill-maintained houses, with half-finished agricultural or horticultural projects in the grounds - and it was obvious that at at least one of them there were simmering hostilities and tensions between some of the residents (and children were present)....
I'm not suggesting that communes are best, though. Just that the current way of defining things doesn't work well for everyone. People are limited by the current way of defining things. Does a family need to be a married couple & kids? Or can it be any grouping of people who live together? or raise children together? What about two couples sharing child rearing and a large home? Maybe providing universal 24 hour child care would be enough?

p.s. there are successful housing cooperatives and multi-family co-housing projects that aren't necessarily 'communes'
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Tiggertoo
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Joined: 2 Jun 2021, 4:52pm

Re: Family ties

Post by Tiggertoo »

Families evolve without any sort of intervention. Sometimes family groups work, other times they don't. Any kind of social engineering to suggest that this or that would work is arrogance.
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