Geographic adjectivals

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Paulatic
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by Paulatic »

DaveReading wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 8:09am
simonineaston wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:22pm Well now you mention it, swede is a good example, as the rutabaga is supposed to have arrived in Scotland from Scandinavia, and was called Swedish turnip, to distinguish it from the smaller similar-tasting Brassica, 'till the longer bits dropped off.
When I was growing up in Scotland, it was simply called a turnip.
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horizon
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by horizon »

AndyK wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 11:53pm
Will wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 2:48pm Are we still allowed to refer to an English bottom bracket?

Will
If you mean a bottom bracket that was manufactured in England then yes, of course.
Going on currently changing usage I would actually say not. These things can flip quite quickly.

A little update: this is from a tweet quoted by the Guardian (so not their fault, but you can see where this is going):
... last checkpoint before Russia occupied Zaporizhia...
https://twitter.com/olliecarroll/status ... -in-russia
Last edited by horizon on 27 Sep 2022, 11:04am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Aren't they called British threads (as opposed to French or Italian) not English? Or BSA.
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by Bmblbzzz »

simonineaston wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:22pm Well now you mention it, swede is a good example, as the rutabaga is supposed to have arrived in Scotland from Scandinavia, and was called Swedish turnip, to distinguish it from the smaller similar-tasting Brassica, 'till the longer bits dropped off. Jerusalem artichokes, neither artichokes nor from anywhere in Palestine, is another amusing turn. When Italians first came across them in America, and as their flowers looked like sunflowers, they were dubbed girasole, which got corrupted over time.
Both snippets courtesy BBC's R4, funnily enough.
Gosh. So that's the Jerusalem part but what about the artichoke?
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

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As in tatties an'neeps :-)
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pete75
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by pete75 »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 10:55am Aren't they called British threads (as opposed to French or Italian) not English? Or BSA.
Yes. Most BB threads here are BSA or Raleigh. Both these are British or English or Midlands or West Midlands and East Midlands or Warwickshire and Nottinghamshire or Birmingham and Nottingham or Small Heath and Lenton if you want to go right down into the geographic stuff.
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 10:56am
simonineaston wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:22pm Well now you mention it, swede is a good example, as the rutabaga is supposed to have arrived in Scotland from Scandinavia, and was called Swedish turnip, to distinguish it from the smaller similar-tasting Brassica, 'till the longer bits dropped off. Jerusalem artichokes, neither artichokes nor from anywhere in Palestine, is another amusing turn. When Italians first came across them in America, and as their flowers looked like sunflowers, they were dubbed girasole, which got corrupted over time.
Both snippets courtesy BBC's R4, funnily enough.
Gosh. So that's the Jerusalem part but what about the artichoke?
The (globe) artichoke was already known and the taste was similar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem ... #Etymology

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AndyK
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by AndyK »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 10:55am Aren't they called British threads (as opposed to French or Italian) not English? Or BSA.
Yes, but apparently Americans* often refer to them as English-threaded (see the Park Tools website). But then the Americans* never were very good at distinguishing between England and Britain.
Either way, it's still not an English (or British) bottom bracket, it's an English (or British) threaded bottom bracket, to distinguish it from an Italian-threaded BB. A bottom bracket made in Taiwan to the BSC/BSA standard is still a Taiwanese BB.

*By American of course I mean a resident of the USA, not of Canada or indeed Peru. Ooh, it's getting complicated
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Raleigh, I think, used to have their own proprietary standard, so those were British made but not British threaded.
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by AndyK »

pete75 wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 11:40am
Bmblbzzz wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 10:55am Aren't they called British threads (as opposed to French or Italian) not English? Or BSA.
Yes. Most BB threads here are BSA or Raleigh. Both these are British or English or Midlands or West Midlands and East Midlands or Warwickshire and Nottinghamshire or Birmingham and Nottingham or Small Heath and Lenton if you want to go right down into the geographic stuff.
Perhaps Horizon would like to correct your sentence by telling us the geographic adjectivals for things relating to West/East Midlands, Warwickshire, Nottinghamshire and Small Heath. ;-)
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:01pm Thanks.

I see Swede as different from Egyptian, English, Russian and Irish.

Perhaps some examples of it performing the function of an adjective while keeping the meaning of something to do with Sweden... ?

Jonathan
I suppose it's more the other way round really. "The Swedish tend to be tall and blond" has an adjective functioning as a noun. "The Swedes tend to be tall and blond" has a noun functioning as an adjective functioning as a noun. Or simply a noun being a noun.

Going back to the OP, I think – though it hasn't yet been made clear – the complaint was about constructions such as "The Sweden government is led by a tall, blond prime minister" rather than "The Swedish government... ". This usage does seem to be becoming more popular, but I've yet to come across "The Swede government... ". To my ear, "the Sweden government" is slightly clunky but clear enough; as is just "Stockholm" in the right context. "The Norwegian foreign minister said cross-border moose permits would be issued this year. Stockholm replied that they were suffering a temporary moose shortage."

(We can now discuss national stereotypes as well as, since the actual PM of Sweden is a woman with... fair hair, whether "blond" should be inflect to "blonde" when applied to a woman. Or even whether "blond" is an adjective and "blonde" a noun, or vice versa.)
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 2:20pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:01pm Thanks.

I see Swede as different from Egyptian, English, Russian and Irish.

Perhaps some examples of it performing the function of an adjective while keeping the meaning of something to do with Sweden... ?
I suppose it's more the other way round really. "The Swedish tend to be tall and blond" has an adjective functioning as a noun. "The Swedes tend to be tall and blond" has a noun functioning as an adjective functioning as a noun. Or simply a noun being a noun.

Going back to the OP, I think – though it hasn't yet been made clear – the complaint was about constructions such as "The Sweden government is led by a tall, blond prime minister" rather than "The Swedish government... ". This usage does seem to be becoming more popular, but I've yet to come across "The Swede government... ". To my ear, "the Sweden government" is slightly clunky but clear enough; as is just "Stockholm" in the right context. "The Norwegian foreign minister said cross-border moose permits would be issued this year. Stockholm replied that they were suffering a temporary moose shortage."
...
I think that Swede was simply an error in that list upthread and should have been Swedish.

Then I agree about the constructions that probably initiated this thread. They're mostly noun adjuncts. I don't have strong feelings about those, and they can certainly add variety. As can metonyms such as Stockholm above.

And sharing examples is probably the best way of discussing them. Any more, anyone?

Thanks

Jonathan
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horizon
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by horizon »

AndyK wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 2:04pm
pete75 wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 11:40am
Bmblbzzz wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 10:55am Aren't they called British threads (as opposed to French or Italian) not English? Or BSA.
Yes. Most BB threads here are BSA or Raleigh. Both these are British or English or Midlands or West Midlands and East Midlands or Warwickshire and Nottinghamshire or Birmingham and Nottingham or Small Heath and Lenton if you want to go right down into the geographic stuff.
Perhaps Horizon would like to correct your sentence by telling us the geographic adjectivals for things relating to West/East Midlands, Warwickshire, Nottinghamshire and Small Heath. ;-)
Adjectivals seem to cover about 95% of the names of countries but the same cannot be said for counties or regions. I could only think of a few (although there may be more): Cornish, Devonian, Salopian, Northumbrian and Cumbrian. It seems to me that where an adjectival is commonly known and used, then it should be used; this is because not using it might introduce another meaning. It might therefore slow down comprehension even if the meaning can ultimately be worked out.

Where there doesn't exist an adjectival, then it seems to be common practice either to use the geographic noun as an adjective or simply use the longer form. For example:

British factories almost all produced BBs with English threading.
Birmingham factories almost all produced BBs with English threading.
Factories in Birmingham etc.


But this might not make sense:

Britain factories almost all produced BBs with England not Italy threading.

Logically it should be as correct as using Birmingham - I'm guessing that it is simply non-use of the common form that makes it not sound right. That's why my OP asked if anyone knew why the change had occurred/was occuring. I'm not so much suggesting that it is incorrect as simply wanting to know why it has happened.
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Biospace
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by Biospace »

My first reaction on reading this thread was, "England isn't a geographical region!"

Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:27pm
simonhill wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:24pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 3:33pm PS: It's frequently noted that some countries don't have these... for example the USA... and the UK.
British, Brits ??

Trying to explain my nationality is sometimes a bit confusing to some foreigners. I live in England, I am British and my country is the UK.
Exactly: we have to shuffle to a different root to get an adjective. It usually doesn't matter but sometimes it does...

Jonathan

I think of England as a political entity rather than a geographical region, occupying most of the southern half of Great Britain. I feel much more connection with my country as in its landscape, people, climate, weather and skies than I do with a combination of certain counties and metropolitan areas, I'll always describe myself as British rather than English. Geographical entities aren't forever and are always changing slowly, but they're a lot more solidly-rooted than politically created regions.

The UK and US probably don't have adjectivals derived from these names in part because they're political concepts. Although of course, most if not all countries are political concepts, so perhaps there's an element of something else going on?
Last edited by Biospace on 27 Sep 2022, 3:48pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Geographic adjectivals

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I think a lot depends on context. And even position in a sentence. "The china factories... " is clear. "China factories..." might be ambiguous. But in practice the rest of the sentence would normally make it clear.
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