Are we all Trussed up...

[roubaixtuesday]

Sums it up.

https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/20 ... er-country

Author is one of the tory mps purged by Johnson

[Ben@Forest]

If the Labour Party do somehow manage to get elected then amongst the first things that they should do is to change the voting system from first past the post to some more equitable form of proportional representation. Of course that will mean that Labour will most likely never win an outright majority again. However, more importantly, it will mean that right wing Tories are never the ruling party again too, which IMHO is a price worth paying for democratic decision making.

Italy, which has 63% of its MPs voted in by proportional representation has just voted in a right-wing government (described largely as far-right by most European commentators, though not by as many Italian commentators). Sweden, with 100% proportional representation has just voted in a right-wing government. And the late Donald Dewar believed the system that had been devised for the Scottish Parliament would never allow the SNP to be in power.

The most dangerous thought anyone can think is that 'if we have this type of system it will stop X happening'. Because it won't.

[reohn2]

Sums it up.

https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/20 ... er-country

Screenshot_20220927-131058_Chrome.jpg

Author is one of the tory mps purged by Johnson

He's not wrong,all but the rich will suffer to greater or lesser extent.
And(collectively) we've only ourselves to blame!

[reohn2]

If the Labour Party do somehow manage to get elected then amongst the first things that they should do is to change the voting system from first past the post to some more equitable form of proportional representation. Of course that will mean that Labour will most likely never win an outright majority again. However, more importantly, it will mean that right wing Tories are never the ruling party again too, which IMHO is a price worth paying for democratic decision making.

Italy, which has 63% of its MPs voted in by proportional representation has just voted in a right-wing government (described largely as far-right by most European commentators, though not by as many Italian commentators). Sweden, with 100% proportional representation has just voted in a right-wing government. And the late Donald Dewar believed the system that had been devised for the Scottish Parliament would never allow the SNP to be in power.

The most dangerous thought anyone can think is that 'if we have this type of system it will stop X happening'. Because it won't.

What do we have trashing the economy ATM?

[Ben@Forest]

What do we have trashing the economy ATM?

As can be clearly read it's a response to a post which suggests PR would mean no right-wing governments ever again. That patently wouldn't be the case, and in fact could mean more extreme parties of either left or right could get more of a handle on power in coalition.

At the moment and at the federal level no German political party will do a deal with the AfD. Would that still be the case in 2028? Or 2038? And Die Linke are currently tearing themselves apart.

[Carlton green]

If the Labour Party do somehow manage to get elected then amongst the first things that they should do is to change the voting system from first past the post to some more equitable form of proportional representation. Of course that will mean that Labour will most likely never win an outright majority again. However, more importantly, it will mean that right wing Tories are never the ruling party again too, which IMHO is a price worth paying for democratic decision making.

Italy, which has 63% of its MPs voted in by proportional representation has just voted in a right-wing government (described largely as far-right by most European commentators, though not by as many Italian commentators). Sweden, with 100% proportional representation has just voted in a right-wing government. And the late Donald Dewar believed the system that had been devised for the Scottish Parliament would never allow the SNP to be in power.

The most dangerous thought anyone can think is that 'if we have this type of system it will stop X happening'. Because it won't.

Point taken. As far as I can see no system is perfect but some systems are more imperfect than others. I would suggest that the first past the post system is one of the less perfect systems and that forms of coalition produce better outcomes. Perhaps it’s just a glitch or not relevant but forms of PR seem to have served Germany very well and over the decades they have become the leading nation in Europe, whereas we have seen the pound devalue by roughly 30% over the last six months.

The quote of me above is 36 pages back! I’ve amended those comments to take onboard what Ben has said above.

[Stevek76]

Italy's right wing coalition has a majority, the 'far-right' Fratelli-d'Italia does not. It's probably worth noting that the reason the coalition does have an overall majority is thanks to the fptp element where they grabbed 83% of the seats (on a less than 50% vote share)

Regarding the 'stop x happening' I think that partly depends on the interpretation of Carlton's words as they were unclear to me. A proportional system would make it exceedingly unlikely for the right wing of the conservative party (or the left wing of the labour party) to seize absolute power on their own. It would still be perfectly possible for such wings to participate in government as part of a coalition but it would help keep a check on ideological detached from reality policymaking.

It would also provide voters with viable alternatives by allowing obviously incompatible parts of parties to split. Better for the voters to determine the relative power of ERG vs one nation Tories than the few hundred thousand of the parties' memberships

Some do seem to think that PR would 'lock out the Tories forever' which is incorrect, naive and not really very good for the argument that we should have proportional voting because it's simply fairer.

Also definitions of right and left are inadequate even within a country, let alone comparing others where the various nominal centres are quite different. For example the Sweden Democrats' economic views aren't exactly right wing compared to the UK, and for your raving US republican commentator they might as well be communists!

[Cugel]

If the Labour Party do somehow manage to get elected then amongst the first things that they should do is to change the voting system from first past the post to some more equitable form of proportional representation. Of course that will mean that Labour will most likely never win an outright majority again. However, more importantly, it will mean that right wing Tories are never the ruling party again too, which IMHO is a price worth paying for democratic decision making.

Italy, which has 63% of its MPs voted in by proportional representation has just voted in a right-wing government (described largely as far-right by most European commentators, though not by as many Italian commentators). Sweden, with 100% proportional representation has just voted in a right-wing government. And the late Donald Dewar believed the system that had been devised for the Scottish Parliament would never allow the SNP to be in power.

The most dangerous thought anyone can think is that 'if we have this type of system it will stop X happening'. Because it won't.

Agreed. All sorts of systems for processes simple & complex can work well or badly not so much because of the systems themselves but because of who is "driving" them. An obvious example is a bicycle, which is a very safe system of transporting a human about when ridden well; and not-so when ridden badly, right up to the possibility of causing death.

In politics, as with cycling, the problem is human nature - or rather, the attraction to power - and its full, profligate & intemperate use - felt by many of those with a certain kind of human nature.

Has there ever been a political system that hasn't ended up going bad as some group of loons get hold of it's reins? Some will claim there is and point at such a system in operation. Of course, the problem with this judgement is that the fine (today) political system is still operating and (given human history) likely to go bad sooner or later, as the naughty kind of humans find the right levers to pull to implement their dangerous desires.

The British FPTP mode gave us both Attlee and Bokum. One did us all a great deal of good whilst t'other ......... All via that same political voting system.

Cugel, keen to keep genies in bottles.

[jois]

If the Labour Party do somehow manage to get elected then amongst the first things that they should do is to change the voting system from first past the post to some more equitable form of proportional representation. Of course that will mean that Labour will most likely never win an outright majority again. However, more importantly, it will mean that right wing Tories are never the ruling party again too, which IMHO is a price worth paying for democratic decision making.

Italy, which has 63% of its MPs voted in by proportional representation has just voted in a right-wing government (described largely as far-right by most European commentators, though not by as many Italian commentators). Sweden, with 100% proportional representation has just voted in a right-wing government. And the late Donald Dewar believed the system that had been devised for the Scottish Parliament would never allow the SNP to be in power.

The most dangerous thought anyone can think is that 'if we have this type of system it will stop X happening'. Because it won't.

The issue is the terms used are sort of subjective lots of people think any one who differs greatly from them is an extremist. Certainly the term " right wing " is thrown about as a perjorative term for those we disagree with.

Selecting a voting system which makes it impossible for a party that has popular support to get elected seems not to be under the general heading of a democratic system.

[Pendodave]

It's a very personal thing, but I'm 58 years old and have never had a General election vote that counted for anything.
Disenfranchising whole swathes of the population seems a fundamental problem of fptp.

[pete75]

The British FPTP mode gave us both Attlee and Bokum. One did us all a great deal of good whilst t'other ......... All via that same political voting system.

Cugel, keen to keep genies in bottles.

Even with some form of PR Atlee would have got in. Labour got almost 48% of the total vote in 45. In 50 they got over 46% which means they'd have still got in. In 51 they lost the election with 46% vs the Tories 43%, so they'd likely have got in again with PR.

[jois]

It's a very personal thing, but I'm 58 years old and have never had a General election vote that counted for anything.
Disenfranchising whole swathes of the population seems a fundamental problem of fptp.

That rather depends who you vote for I suppose, and what you mean by count. The only votes that really count in our system are the ones that give a winning margin in a neck and neck contest. The vast majority live in area were the outcome is very predictable. Any one person could stop at home and their vote or lack of it counts for nothing.

But it's not about an individual's vote counting, it's about a collective exspessing their preference

[reohn2]

What do we have trashing the economy ATM?

As can be clearly read it's a response to a post which suggests PR would mean no right-wing governments ever again. That patently wouldn't be the case, and in fact could mean more extreme parties of either left or right could get more of a handle on power in coalition.

At the moment and at the federal level no German political party will do a deal with the AfD. Would that still be the case in 2028? Or 2038? And Die Linke are currently tearing themselves apart.

But whatever the case left,right or centre,the atleast it could,with some positive rules/laws eg; compulsive voting,strict limits on campaign funding and a set lowest percentage rate for representation to name three OTTOMH.

EDIT:- just add one thing's for sure it would make MPs earn their keep,I'm not suggesting all MPs presently don't but if they were to only have one job being an MP might also help.

[Jdsk]

It's a very personal thing, but I'm 58 years old and have never had a General election vote that counted for anything.
Disenfranchising whole swathes of the population seems a fundamental problem of fptp.

Yes, it would be very good to have more votes counting and that causing more people to believe that they do.

Jonathan

[Stevek76]

How much votes count is quite apparent just from observing the campaigning during election time some seats get the whole (shadow) cabinet visiting, others barely get a few leaflets.